Preparing to operate long-haul at night
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: London
Well, I didn't really want to open up the debate on fatigue/FTLs, but I guess that was unavoidable given the question!
Thanks to all for your insightful replies, in particular wiggy, Denti and Dan Winterland (I was hoping you would share your thoughts).
Happy New Year to all.
Thanks to all for your insightful replies, in particular wiggy, Denti and Dan Winterland (I was hoping you would share your thoughts).
Happy New Year to all.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
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From: ME
Denti, thanks for the explanation, if we lived to those regs, i would have lost most of my layovers 
But on the other hand, longest flight time i have done as a double crew was 22 hrs! Terrible winds across the Atlantic, but that was an unusual pairing
But on the other hand, longest flight time i have done as a double crew was 22 hrs! Terrible winds across the Atlantic, but that was an unusual pairing
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 331
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From: Denver,Co USA
Anyone who thinks pilots can arrange their sleep schedules is clueless about pilot schedules. Often days ahead you are flying another trip. I only flew long haul for a few years and am really glad I don't have to do it any more. Short haul can be just as bad though. I flew night freight for a while and my duty day was usually 7pm to 7am flying three legs for five days in a row plus positioning flights at the start and finish. That was worse. Come to think of it I am really glad I don't have to fly at all any more. Thirty four years was enough.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: Northwich
A piece of the jigsaw
After my pilots free flight Atlas "best bang for the buck" in my aviation career.... this is perfect for stop overs in daylight as well as on the aircraft or at home next to the snoring wife. Its a patented product which has double noise reduction (34 dBs on the plugs plus unspecified reduction on the covers/ plug retainers) . The mask cuts out light better than any mask I've ever used. They imply you can reuse it for life ...the reality is I have used mine almost every work day/ night for almost six months and continuously wiping it down eventually meant I had to buy another. Also the ear plugs dont even last that long but you can buy them separately for peanuts.
The only place I can find that sells it (presumably the patent holder) is on e bay UK item number 320998848140 although I belive it is also sold in the US. In terms of its cost to produce it is top quality but still expensive for what it is... but uninterrupted sleep is priceless for a light sleeper like.
The only place I can find that sells it (presumably the patent holder) is on e bay UK item number 320998848140 although I belive it is also sold in the US. In terms of its cost to produce it is top quality but still expensive for what it is... but uninterrupted sleep is priceless for a light sleeper like.
Last edited by alosaurus; 11th October 2012 at 19:09.
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: US
Hardest part of the job, especially international long haul, and especially Deep South(double all nighter U.S. to S. America), is the sleep cycle.
You're constantly not getting full sleep during your normal sleep cycle. Some can deal with it and others avoid it like the plague.
Some call it the "international hangover". Sober, but you feel completely hungover.
You're constantly not getting full sleep during your normal sleep cycle. Some can deal with it and others avoid it like the plague.
Some call it the "international hangover". Sober, but you feel completely hungover.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 578
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From: Sutton
Mised - You are so right....the problem for me was.....I didn't find out I was one of those who didn't deal with it that well until I made the move from short haul to long haul (and moved my family out to the sandpit). I'm now committed here on (realistically) a ten year money making project and have to try and adapt. Not helped when the company rotate you to Melbourne followed by Rio....Tokyo then LAX etc...or when the in flight rest is way too noisy.
Got one of the mask / noise / light reduction sleep aids mentioned earlier in this thread....does exactly what it says on the tin. Also use Melatonnin but only when I really can't sleep. You can slowly become too reliant on it if over used.
Got one of the mask / noise / light reduction sleep aids mentioned earlier in this thread....does exactly what it says on the tin. Also use Melatonnin but only when I really can't sleep. You can slowly become too reliant on it if over used.
Joined: Nov 2008
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From: Next door
My company has a mixed fleet and the policy for aircraft without a designated crew rest is for one pilot to sleep whilst a cabin crew member is brought into the flight deck "to keep the PF aroused" thats a quote from the ops manual.
Any drugs clearly a total no go... but what you must have is a way of eliminating light and noise. I agree that £20 is a lot to pay for the sleepmaster but it is the best thing on the market for keeping the daylight out the CC / PF conversations slipstream noise etc.
Any drugs clearly a total no go... but what you must have is a way of eliminating light and noise. I agree that £20 is a lot to pay for the sleepmaster but it is the best thing on the market for keeping the daylight out the CC / PF conversations slipstream noise etc.
Last edited by Zoyberg; 13th April 2012 at 00:26.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: Northwich
No worries 300-600...who do you fly for....didn't know anyone in the UK still operates those (Monarch)?
Found the US supplier of sleep master mask on ebay-com... if you are the west side of the pond it would be cheper to buy from them over here though postage makes it fractionally cheaper to buy on.co.uk...still expensive.Just bought another to cut out the snoring completely....but the Mrs didn't care for me wrapping it around her mouth!!!
Found the US supplier of sleep master mask on ebay-com... if you are the west side of the pond it would be cheper to buy from them over here though postage makes it fractionally cheaper to buy on.co.uk...still expensive.Just bought another to cut out the snoring completely....but the Mrs didn't care for me wrapping it around her mouth!!!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 68
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From: Chester
Used to fly for Monarch... left to go to the sandpit for a corporate operator. Money is great but a lot of the pax have an attitude problem like you would not believe.
Last week had one little prince complaining the cabin was too noisy and they couldn't sleep unless we did something about it he would have us sacked on landing!
If he had asked in a half decent way I had my Sleepmaster in the bag and he could have used it.... as it was we just put on MCT and came out of econ to 0.02 below MMO. It didn't sound a lot noiser...but made us feel better.
I'm still employed BTW
Last week had one little prince complaining the cabin was too noisy and they couldn't sleep unless we did something about it he would have us sacked on landing!
If he had asked in a half decent way I had my Sleepmaster in the bag and he could have used it.... as it was we just put on MCT and came out of econ to 0.02 below MMO. It didn't sound a lot noiser...but made us feel better.
I'm still employed BTW
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
I only do short-haul and when I see I'm on about to start on earlies, I move my preceding bedtime(s) forwards so that I am properly rested. If my family want to be fed, they have to assist me by being quiet. When away from home it's considerably easier.
Last edited by Piltdown Man; 17th July 2012 at 21:19.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: I wouldn't know.
And your family really manages that? Must be a model family then Anyway, how do you prepare for those awful flights with a 2200 check in where you will be back somewhere around 0900 next morning? Lets say after having checked out at 1000 after a three sector early on the same day which is just the legal minimum rest at home base. Could be just 10 hours of rest before that downroute of course.
Anyway, how do you prepare for those awful flights with a 2200 check in where you will be back somewhere around 0900 next morning? Lets say after having checked out at 1000 after a three sector early on the same day which is just the legal minimum rest at home base. Could be just 10 hours of rest before that downroute of course.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: London
Glad to see this thread might have helped some get some good (but little known) ear plugs!
Denti: surely you wouldn't be rostered to operate over-night having finished flying at 09:00 the same day? If so, please let me know when/where this happens and I'll be sure to avoid said over-night flight! That isn't legal, surely?
Denti: surely you wouldn't be rostered to operate over-night having finished flying at 09:00 the same day? If so, please let me know when/where this happens and I'll be sure to avoid said over-night flight! That isn't legal, surely?
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
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From: ME
Glad to see this thread might have helped some get some good (but little known) ear plugs!
As for the flight described by Denti, we have all done it, min rest in hotel day or night.
Last edited by mutt; 19th July 2012 at 16:08.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
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From: ME
This mask / ear plug combo is so much better than anything else that is out there.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,562
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From: I wouldn't know.
Nicholas, sadly that is legal. In europe one only needs 12 hours of rest after a flight duty when at their homebase if duty was less than 12 hours. Downroute in a hotel it is only 10 hours if the preceding duty was less than 10 hours. Which allows some quite atrocious rostering patterns.
Anyway, before a longhaul flight in my company we have at least 16 hours of rest and the duty before that cannot be longer than 10 hours. However that is only a company rule, legal is as i outlined above.
Anyway, before a longhaul flight in my company we have at least 16 hours of rest and the duty before that cannot be longer than 10 hours. However that is only a company rule, legal is as i outlined above.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
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From: ME
Maybe our difference of opinion on the "hot" has something to do with you living in the Middle East touching 50 degrees ...here in the UK Midlands its nearer to 15 degrees this Summer!
Maybe it's just that our inflight eyeshades and earplugs are good quality
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 26
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From: A long way from home
Wish I'd found this "Sleep Master" 20 years ago... has to be a serious thunderstorm or mortar attack to disturb my rest in bed . Great for insflight rest even when heading east into the sunrise...blocks light completely. Now just need to find something that blocks the gas smell from some of the RHS guys.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
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From: Blighty
The last time I slept with ear plugs, I didn't hear the wake up call. I was woken by the hotel duty manager shaking me about ten minutes after report!
Didn't get in the pooh, as the plugs were necessary due to contruction work next to the hotel. (And it was a freighter where being on time was very rare!).
Didn't get in the pooh, as the plugs were necessary due to contruction work next to the hotel. (And it was a freighter where being on time was very rare!).
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 25th September 2012 at 01:23.