Logging of IF time
There's always been a contradiction in Oz - as Dave Incognito pointed out, the CAOs say that flight time in VMC at night can't be counted as IF time. The contradiction is that CAO 40.2.2 para 3.1(a) limits NGT VFR to pvt or awk a/c below 5700Kg MTOW. This means that the PIC of an RPT Metro 23 (no autopilot) technically cannot log any IF on a VMC night, yet is expressly forbidden to fly under VMC at night. Don't you love the beureaucratic mind!!
Note also that the NGT VFR rating is valid only in Oz - too bad for QF!!
Note also that the NGT VFR rating is valid only in Oz - too bad for QF!!
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When hand flying in VMC at night over water during a moonless night without reference to an altimeter and a gyro it would require magic to maintain exact altitude and exact wings level.
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ENGLISHAL :
I can assure you that when you fly a B757 or whatever, down an airway, you do not navigate it, or fly it by looking out the window! You do fly it "by sole reference to the instruments." The weather does not matter. Even if you can see the ground, your primary source of information is still the flight instruments!
In the UK (and europe I think) if you are in controlled airspace (as i have already said) you must fly IFR, no VFR allowed in CA!
Eff Oh
I can assure you that when you fly a B757 or whatever, down an airway, you do not navigate it, or fly it by looking out the window! You do fly it "by sole reference to the instruments." The weather does not matter. Even if you can see the ground, your primary source of information is still the flight instruments!
In the UK (and europe I think) if you are in controlled airspace (as i have already said) you must fly IFR, no VFR allowed in CA!
Eff Oh
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Therefore in an airliner you log IF for the whole flight, as you are always flying with reference to instruments. I would only deduct 10 minutes or so of IF time for a visual approach at the destination. Its somewhat different for GA.
Edited for clarity (?)
[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Flap 5 ]
Edited for clarity (?)
[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Flap 5 ]
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Eff Oh,
I'm sure you're right ! However, I think the JAA and certainly the FAA would argue the logging of AIT...
When you refer to CA I assume you mean Class A (airways and the like), as VFR is certainly allowed in class D
Cheers
I'm sure you're right ! However, I think the JAA and certainly the FAA would argue the logging of AIT...
When you refer to CA I assume you mean Class A (airways and the like), as VFR is certainly allowed in class D
Cheers
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The JAR-compliant logbook, described at IEM FCL 1.080, has separate columns for VFR and IFR flight. It makes no provision for the recording of 'Instrument Flight Time' (flight by sole reference to instruments)because there is no value (under JAA requirements) in recording such time.
According to the instructions on how to use the logbook, Instrument Flight Time undertaken as part of training for a licence or rating should be recorded in the 'Remarks' column.
Under these requirements and on, for example, a public transport flight from A to B under IFR, the whole flight would be recorded in the IFR column. Any part of the flight which was by sole reference to instruments (e.g. in IMC) could be recorded by the handling pilot as instrument flight time. However, once a total of 75 hours of instrument flight time has been accumulated (the minimum for ATPL issue) there is clearly no point in logging any more.
Incidentally, it is not entirely true to say that an airliner in the airway is always flown by sole reference to instruments. Leaving aside the fact that the autopilot is engaged for most of the time, if the aircraft is being hand flown in VMC it is simply not credible that the handling pilot is receiving no visual cues whatsoever from the world outside. Without doubt the primary source of information is the flight instruments but it is not the sole source. In any case, surely it is not seeing the ground that is important - it is seeing the horizon!
As another example, consider, say, a Piper Navajo on a flight from A to B, on a CAVOK day, under the Instrument Flight Rules, which remains outside controlled airspace at all times. The aircraft will, for the most part, be flown visually and certainly never 'by sole reference to instruments' and so no part of the flight will be recorded as Instrument Flight Time. However, the whole flight will be recorded in the IFR column of the JAA-compliant logbook.
According to the instructions on how to use the logbook, Instrument Flight Time undertaken as part of training for a licence or rating should be recorded in the 'Remarks' column.
Under these requirements and on, for example, a public transport flight from A to B under IFR, the whole flight would be recorded in the IFR column. Any part of the flight which was by sole reference to instruments (e.g. in IMC) could be recorded by the handling pilot as instrument flight time. However, once a total of 75 hours of instrument flight time has been accumulated (the minimum for ATPL issue) there is clearly no point in logging any more.
Incidentally, it is not entirely true to say that an airliner in the airway is always flown by sole reference to instruments. Leaving aside the fact that the autopilot is engaged for most of the time, if the aircraft is being hand flown in VMC it is simply not credible that the handling pilot is receiving no visual cues whatsoever from the world outside. Without doubt the primary source of information is the flight instruments but it is not the sole source. In any case, surely it is not seeing the ground that is important - it is seeing the horizon!
As another example, consider, say, a Piper Navajo on a flight from A to B, on a CAVOK day, under the Instrument Flight Rules, which remains outside controlled airspace at all times. The aircraft will, for the most part, be flown visually and certainly never 'by sole reference to instruments' and so no part of the flight will be recorded as Instrument Flight Time. However, the whole flight will be recorded in the IFR column of the JAA-compliant logbook.
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Rolling Circle,
I disagree with you that there is no point in logging instrument flight time after ATPL issue. Many employers will be interested in your actual instrument time and may stipulate a minimum.
I disagree with you that there is no point in logging instrument flight time after ATPL issue. Many employers will be interested in your actual instrument time and may stipulate a minimum.
