Touch and Go
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From: In the circuit
Touch and Go
I was at East Midlands the other day and a Ryanair 737 was on a training pattern performing touch and go.
I wondered what the procedure is for this. Do you touch down with landing flaps and then retract them on the roll until its time to go again, or do you land with less flaps than normal and leave them set as they are until liftoff?
Curious is all.
I wondered what the procedure is for this. Do you touch down with landing flaps and then retract them on the roll until its time to go again, or do you land with less flaps than normal and leave them set as they are until liftoff?
Curious is all.
Joined: Aug 2011
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From: far too low
You land with normal flap (whatever that may be on the 737ng not sure)
Only other change on approach is that the speed and auto brakes are not armed.
the following is company, base checker specific i'm sure but in general.
Student maintains the centre line does not deploy reverse. If either speed brake or thrust reverse is deployed then a/c brought to a full stop
base checker:
brings up the thrust to an intermediate level
retracts flaps to a take off setting
sets trim to a sensible amount
ensure speed brake is still down
checks engine instruments
brings thrust up to a take off setting.
Once all this is completed you should be at or near Vrotate
go again (minimum 6 if first type, 4 if experienced)
If anything goes wrong, base checker takes control and stops the take off.
Most fun you can have with your clothes on as far as i'm concerned
Only other change on approach is that the speed and auto brakes are not armed.
the following is company, base checker specific i'm sure but in general.
Student maintains the centre line does not deploy reverse. If either speed brake or thrust reverse is deployed then a/c brought to a full stop
base checker:
brings up the thrust to an intermediate level
retracts flaps to a take off setting
sets trim to a sensible amount
ensure speed brake is still down
checks engine instruments
brings thrust up to a take off setting.
Once all this is completed you should be at or near Vrotate
go again (minimum 6 if first type, 4 if experienced)
If anything goes wrong, base checker takes control and stops the take off.
Most fun you can have with your clothes on as far as i'm concerned
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: England
What is the purpose of these particular touch and goes?
– is it to teach a landing followed (quickly) with a take off?
(and after a couple of good ‘uns does the ‘base checker’ get out and you do it on your own?)
– Or is for airport familiarisation?
– Or is it neither of theses?
– And yes it must be good fun.
– is it to teach a landing followed (quickly) with a take off?
(and after a couple of good ‘uns does the ‘base checker’ get out and you do it on your own?)
– Or is for airport familiarisation?
– Or is it neither of theses?
– And yes it must be good fun.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: I wouldn't know.
Depends on country of AOC though. Flaps 15 on the 737 is not certified as normal landing flaps setting within JAR, so you have to take at least flaps 30. Lowest take off flap setting is 25 though, but usually 5 is used.
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Brighton
What is the purpose of these particular touch and goes?
– is it to teach a landing followed (quickly) with a take off?
(and after a couple of good ‘uns does the ‘base checker’ get out and you do it on your own?)
– Or is for airport familiarisation?
– Or is it neither of theses?
– And yes it must be good fun.
– is it to teach a landing followed (quickly) with a take off?
(and after a couple of good ‘uns does the ‘base checker’ get out and you do it on your own?)
– Or is for airport familiarisation?
– Or is it neither of theses?
– And yes it must be good fun.
Base checker get out? No!
Airport famil: no.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,991
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From: UK
737NG...land with F15....then go with F15...the flaps run too slowly!
What is the purpose of these particular touch and goes?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
All the touch and goes I have ever done/seen have been with flap 30/40 and flap 15 selected after touchdown - ok if the runway is long enough!
Runway length is by no means crucial and it doesn't matter what the flaps are passing through when you rotate, although it is normally near to 15.
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: London
Sorry, I have to ask. Why does it not matter what the flap setting is at rotate speed on a touch and go?! Is it not the same as a standard take-off, i.e. V speeds, climb performance etc. vary depending upon the exact flap setting?
One other question, what happens with the FMC? Can it be programmed for a touch and go so it transitions to a new departure while still on the runway?
One other question, what happens with the FMC? Can it be programmed for a touch and go so it transitions to a new departure while still on the runway?
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: UK
One other question, what happens with the FMC? Can it be programmed for a touch and go so it transitions to a new departure while still on the runway?
However, by definition you are flying visual circuits. Not a lot of need for an FMC. Look out of window.
NoD
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
Sorry, I have to ask. Why does it not matter what the flap setting is at rotate speed on a touch and go?! Is it not the same as a standard take-off, i.e. V speeds, climb performance etc. vary depending upon the exact flap setting?
One other question, what happens with the FMC? Can it be programmed for a touch and go so it transitions to a new departure while still on the runway?
NB I stand to be corrected when the first 'Child of the Magenta Line' reaches Base Training Cpt status and cannot, of course, fly a visual circuit unless it is programmed in the .............................................aaah! Stop me! Nurse!
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From: Bradd
BOAC, interesting that runway length isn't an issue.
Code:
Runway length is by no means crucial and it doesn't matter what the flaps are passing through when you rotate, although it is normally near to 15.
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From: London
Right, I understand re. the FMC / visual flying. Point taken.
But am still a bit confused on the V speeds front. BOAC, you say:
Does this mean there is not a specific Vr for a touch and go?
It seems from what has been said above that it is acceptable and safe to rotate the aircraft while the flaps are in transit. But I have read here before that changing the flaps while on the take-off roll (e.g. if you realise they are not set correctly) is absolutely verboten in normal/revenue operations. So, do I understand correctly that a different set of rules apply for touch and go training flights?
Another thing (!): what happens about braking? Presumably you do not arm the autobrakes on the approach and when you land you simply let the aircraft maintain its speed? If, however, the training captain decides that a stop is (for whatever reason) required, would you have to brake manually?
But am still a bit confused on the V speeds front. BOAC, you say:
Approach speed at Flap 30 or 40 is pretty much the same as the required speed for climb away after take-off at F15.
It seems from what has been said above that it is acceptable and safe to rotate the aircraft while the flaps are in transit. But I have read here before that changing the flaps while on the take-off roll (e.g. if you realise they are not set correctly) is absolutely verboten in normal/revenue operations. So, do I understand correctly that a different set of rules apply for touch and go training flights?
Another thing (!): what happens about braking? Presumably you do not arm the autobrakes on the approach and when you land you simply let the aircraft maintain its speed? If, however, the training captain decides that a stop is (for whatever reason) required, would you have to brake manually?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
Does this mean there is not a specific Vr for a touch and go?
It seems from what has been said above that it is acceptable and safe to rotate the aircraft while the flaps are in transit. But I have read here before that changing the flaps while on the take-off roll (e.g. if you realise they are not set correctly) is absolutely verboten in normal/revenue operations. So, do I understand correctly that a different set of rules apply for touch and go training flights?
Another thing (!): what happens about braking? Presumably you do not arm the autobrakes on the approach and when you land you simply let the aircraft maintain its speed?
If, however, the training captain decides that a stop is (for whatever reason) required, would you have to brake manually?
It is important to remember also that these exercises are carried out at a relatively low weight - max of 7/8 crew. no pax, no c/c, little fuel, so performance should not be an issue (unless you are in a ' 737 based Wedgetail AWAC' and you want to go and visit the floozie at that airfield with a bigger runway/better crew diner/better allowances
.
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From: Sweden
But I have read here before that changing the flaps while on the take-off roll (e.g. if you realise they are not set correctly) is absolutely verboten in normal/revenue operations. So, do I understand correctly that a different set of rules apply for touch and go training flights?
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: UK
So, do I understand correctly that a different set of rules apply for touch and go training flights?
Firstly, you're only legally obliged to obey the performance criteria on a revenue flight (which crew training is not).
On a revenue flight if you advance the thrust levers and get a take off configuration warning then the take should be rejected and you would proceed in accordance with company rules. Either way the take off flap setting should not be changed during the take off roll.
However, with respect to flaps, the TOWC will only sound if flaps are not in the take off range (for the B737 1 thru to 25) - I'd have to check the manuals but I think it's the selected setting rather than the actual but no doubt someone here will correct me on that if wrong!
A training flight is one that is operated in accordance with special procedures as laid down by the Company operations manual (including obviously advice from the manufacturer) - you also have a training captain in charge and more often then not a Safety Pilot in the jumpseat to assist and monitor.
Last edited by fireflybob; 5th November 2011 at 14:05.
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From: London
Thanks for the replies, gents. All clear now.
Just one more question. BOAC: you say there may be 7/8 crew members on such a flight. Can you train several cadets coming onto the line in the same touch-and-go flight, or is it normal to have one Training Captain and one cadet where the same cadet gets to performs the multiple touch-and-goes?
Just one more question. BOAC: you say there may be 7/8 crew members on such a flight. Can you train several cadets coming onto the line in the same touch-and-go flight, or is it normal to have one Training Captain and one cadet where the same cadet gets to performs the multiple touch-and-goes?
