How do trans-atlantic flights navigate?
How do trans-atlantic flights navigate?
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nope!
pilots know where they go because they line-up the planes to the direction they need before taking off.
e.g. for a westbound flight they take-off toward the big "W" they have on the compass (the other directions are: "N" "E" "S" but I'm still wondering what they stands for) and so on...
about the radio contact: I heard (but it's an uncontrolled rumor) that they use HF, not always anyway: only when the selcal sounds.
Ciao
Paolo
[This message has been edited by vipero (edited 15 March 2001).]
[This message has been edited by vipero (edited 15 March 2001).]
pilots know where they go because they line-up the planes to the direction they need before taking off.
e.g. for a westbound flight they take-off toward the big "W" they have on the compass (the other directions are: "N" "E" "S" but I'm still wondering what they stands for) and so on...
about the radio contact: I heard (but it's an uncontrolled rumor) that they use HF, not always anyway: only when the selcal sounds.
Ciao
Paolo
[This message has been edited by vipero (edited 15 March 2001).]
[This message has been edited by vipero (edited 15 March 2001).]
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The Atlantic involves an interesting combination of technologies. For one part tiny lasers inside precision optical prisms detect the slightest movement of the aircraft since departure and in conjunction with the latest spacecraft orbiting the earth sending position and time signals to a sensitive reciever in the aircraft, our position is verified.
On the other hand, we wind up some squawky box originally designed in the 1930's and shout at the top of our voices to maximise the AM modulation, bouncing our short wave transmissions off the unreliable ionosphere layers and hope that a bloke in a hut 2,000 miles away in Gander can hear us over the top of 20 other aircraft doing the same thing.
Rod
On the other hand, we wind up some squawky box originally designed in the 1930's and shout at the top of our voices to maximise the AM modulation, bouncing our short wave transmissions off the unreliable ionosphere layers and hope that a bloke in a hut 2,000 miles away in Gander can hear us over the top of 20 other aircraft doing the same thing.
Rod
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Personally I find that if I keep the aeroplane between the red light out on the end of the left wing (how appropriate, don't you think, that the red light should be on the left wing...) and the green light out there on the end of the right wing, somehow I seem to end up in the right place almost every time.
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Time out for all of you! If the kid wants to know, then let's tell him (or her).
Trans-atlantic navigation is, like the circle one said, is an interesting combination of FMS, INS, GPS. Most a/c are not equipped with GPS, but it doesn't really make a difference. The INS are just as good. There are 3 and the FMS interprets the varied information and gives a reading that goes along with a high-tech navigation system (on INS).
GPS is self-explanitory.
FMS controls all kinds of things really, it's a lot to explain (if you want the details, just ask).
ETOPS regulations are very important in twins, and the navigation is altered as such. Non-ETOPS usually follow similar routes, with a bit of differences. VORs, NDBs, DMEs and such are useless at such long distances, so advanced navigation systems are required. Air traffic is at a minimal, with radio operators acting as halfways between air traffic stations on mainlands such as Canada and Ireland, and are just there to aid in aircraft separation . . . not very necessary with TCAS systems installed.
Anything else?
Guess not.
SFly
Trans-atlantic navigation is, like the circle one said, is an interesting combination of FMS, INS, GPS. Most a/c are not equipped with GPS, but it doesn't really make a difference. The INS are just as good. There are 3 and the FMS interprets the varied information and gives a reading that goes along with a high-tech navigation system (on INS).
GPS is self-explanitory.
FMS controls all kinds of things really, it's a lot to explain (if you want the details, just ask).
ETOPS regulations are very important in twins, and the navigation is altered as such. Non-ETOPS usually follow similar routes, with a bit of differences. VORs, NDBs, DMEs and such are useless at such long distances, so advanced navigation systems are required. Air traffic is at a minimal, with radio operators acting as halfways between air traffic stations on mainlands such as Canada and Ireland, and are just there to aid in aircraft separation . . . not very necessary with TCAS systems installed.
Anything else?
Guess not.
SFly
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Now this doesn't go any further - OK?
It is commonly held that planes use their INS. Think about it though. These are extremely expensive/delicate and you are allowed to take off with just two. Would you take that risk?
Now...why do you think they put those route maps in the flight magazines? You Mr Passenger will notice you don't have any joysticks, pedals or constant attention of hostesses. That my friend is because you ain't flying the plane.
Now I know you're thinking how do they get those red lines going across the Atlantic everyday. I must confess whilst I've always assumed it's the Red Arrows who do it, I've never actually seen them in flagrante delecto.
How they compensate for wind wasn't in the ATPL syllabus so I'm not sure. More of a problem for me is how they get up to 60000 feet to do the Concorde ones.
So if one day you become an airline pilot forget all that FMC nonsense. Far too complicated. Just a gimmick.
All you need to do is keep to the right hand side of the red line.
It is commonly held that planes use their INS. Think about it though. These are extremely expensive/delicate and you are allowed to take off with just two. Would you take that risk?
Now...why do you think they put those route maps in the flight magazines? You Mr Passenger will notice you don't have any joysticks, pedals or constant attention of hostesses. That my friend is because you ain't flying the plane.
Now I know you're thinking how do they get those red lines going across the Atlantic everyday. I must confess whilst I've always assumed it's the Red Arrows who do it, I've never actually seen them in flagrante delecto.
How they compensate for wind wasn't in the ATPL syllabus so I'm not sure. More of a problem for me is how they get up to 60000 feet to do the Concorde ones.
So if one day you become an airline pilot forget all that FMC nonsense. Far too complicated. Just a gimmick.
All you need to do is keep to the right hand side of the red line.
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Sfly
I agree we should inform on the questions asked, but let's get it right
There is no Transatlantic ATC station in Ireland, it's the radio station which is there. The ATC Centre is at Prestwick, Scotland.
Also the ATC guys and girls are not there to aid in separation, they are there to provide it. I'd love to see everyone have a free for all one day with only TCAS to save the day, especially as the Eastbound comes steaming through the Westbound core flow
Would you like to be the guinea pig ??
For those who don't like HF radio, it can be a thing of the past, get onto your beancounters. You can have datalink clearance delivery on both sides of the Atlantic plus automated waypoint reporting. All you need is something like ACARS.
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10 West
UK ATC'er
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I agree we should inform on the questions asked, but let's get it right
There is no Transatlantic ATC station in Ireland, it's the radio station which is there. The ATC Centre is at Prestwick, Scotland.
Also the ATC guys and girls are not there to aid in separation, they are there to provide it. I'd love to see everyone have a free for all one day with only TCAS to save the day, especially as the Eastbound comes steaming through the Westbound core flow
Would you like to be the guinea pig ??
For those who don't like HF radio, it can be a thing of the past, get onto your beancounters. You can have datalink clearance delivery on both sides of the Atlantic plus automated waypoint reporting. All you need is something like ACARS.
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10 West
UK ATC'er
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Sorry bout that, bud . . . it's in Scotland, OK? Blimey, touchy touchy! Anyway, I'm talking to Shannon Oceanic for a good 200 miles after hitting ocean westbound, notice I said
"such as Ireland and Canada".
I didn't mean that transatlantic flight is a fun rollercoaster ride where people go willy nilly with just TCAS systems to help them as you put it, let's not exaggerate. I merely meant that (and you must agree), TCAS helps exponentially than 15 years ago when there was no such thing, and it backs up the separation ATC has already given.
There's no need to make threats . . . maybe you wanna take this outside!
SFly
"such as Ireland and Canada".
I didn't mean that transatlantic flight is a fun rollercoaster ride where people go willy nilly with just TCAS systems to help them as you put it, let's not exaggerate. I merely meant that (and you must agree), TCAS helps exponentially than 15 years ago when there was no such thing, and it backs up the separation ATC has already given.
There's no need to make threats . . . maybe you wanna take this outside!
SFly
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Outside eh ?? Not really my style. Can't quite see the threat either, maybe the winking emoticon I used got lost in the translation 
So let's agree that we're both adding to the answer in our own little ways.
Totally agree. And between us we are. I'm sure the answers you give are appreciated.
I read that as implying no need for ATC. Which is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint. Not one I share, nor IFALPA. But it has its supporters and is a valid challenge to any system.
Ah,so it's you !! The callsign is SHANWICK
I did notice, just correcting the fact that Ireland is not an example. I'm a born again pedant I'm afraid so you'll have to bear with me
Well, I agree it has been a good thing but remember that TCAS is not a separation assurance tool (a common misconception) and so plays no part in providing it. It is of course a vital safety net and provides an excellent task in collision prevention. That's what it has been designed for. And once everyone eventually gets V7, it will be even better.
Regards
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 16 March 2001).]
So let's agree that we're both adding to the answer in our own little ways.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">If the kid wants to know, then let's tell him (or her).</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">and are just there to aid in aircraft separation . . . not very necessary with TCAS systems installed.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Anyway, I'm talking to Shannon Oceanic for a good 200 miles after hitting ocean westbound,</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">notice I said "such as Ireland and Canada".</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">TCAS helps exponentially than 15 years ago when there was no such thing, and it backs up the separation ATC has already given.</font>
Regards
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 16 March 2001).]
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I wish you wouldn't pick my words apart with "Quotes" such as this.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I read that as implying no need for ATC . . . and is a valid challenge to any system</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Ah,so it's you !! The callsign is SHANWICK! </font>
The whole "threat" thing is derived from the "guinea pig" remark. Wise words, clever.
I think that about covers it.
Regards,
SFly
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I find it quite incredible that I make a preposterous suggestion and no one spots the deliberate mistake. This is supposed to be a professional channel!!!!
Red lines in the sky? Who's kidding who???!!! Pay attention! It can't work because you'd need big headlamps at night and pilots coming the other way would keep flashing you as, unlike the roads, you are all on different levels ...well hopefully.
Obviously the truth is you basically navigate like you do down the M1 in fog. You follow the lights of the bloke in front. If you are doing 600 mph there's no way you could otherwise see what was happening in front of you quickly enough.
Have you never wondered why the brightest navigation light on a plane (the white one) is at the rear????
Red lines in the sky? Who's kidding who???!!! Pay attention! It can't work because you'd need big headlamps at night and pilots coming the other way would keep flashing you as, unlike the roads, you are all on different levels ...well hopefully.
Obviously the truth is you basically navigate like you do down the M1 in fog. You follow the lights of the bloke in front. If you are doing 600 mph there's no way you could otherwise see what was happening in front of you quickly enough.
Have you never wondered why the brightest navigation light on a plane (the white one) is at the rear????