Kai Tak : The Cathay way and the Lufthansa way
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Kai Tak : The Cathay way and the Lufthansa way
Captains,
I've heard that in the kai tak days, there were basically two ways of flying the approach :
-Cathay and a few others, when weather allowed it, left Localizer to parallel it to the left, started the turn after MM, made a steeper turn and got longer finals which allowed them to adjust a crab for Xwinds.
-Lufthansa and most airlines remained on LOC until MM, started a shallower turn and straightened the aircraft just as they reached the thresold, hence shorter finals.
Could any pilots who flew it confirm whether it is true or not ?
-When did Cathay pilots left LOC ? at OM ? after ? before ?
-How much to the left could they go ?
In the case of a visual NDB13 approach, what was the procedure once you reached SC ? (Any chart would be welcome !).
Cheers
BBB
I've heard that in the kai tak days, there were basically two ways of flying the approach :
-Cathay and a few others, when weather allowed it, left Localizer to parallel it to the left, started the turn after MM, made a steeper turn and got longer finals which allowed them to adjust a crab for Xwinds.
-Lufthansa and most airlines remained on LOC until MM, started a shallower turn and straightened the aircraft just as they reached the thresold, hence shorter finals.
Could any pilots who flew it confirm whether it is true or not ?
-When did Cathay pilots left LOC ? at OM ? after ? before ?
-How much to the left could they go ?
In the case of a visual NDB13 approach, what was the procedure once you reached SC ? (Any chart would be welcome !).
Cheers
BBB
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If you want the best answer for flying the Kai Tak approach you should ask Dragonair pilots as they flew far more approaches than Cathay Pilots. 4 sector days are normal with KA giving both pilots on board at least one approach and landing each working day.
Basically you would leave the turn on to finals for 13 as late as possible to get as long a finals as possible. Cathay pilots would go left of the localiser when they were visual to lengthen the final approach after the turn.
Basically you would leave the turn on to finals for 13 as late as possible to get as long a finals as possible. Cathay pilots would go left of the localiser when they were visual to lengthen the final approach after the turn.
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BBB
I can definitely confirm this to be true only in as much that I personally observed this procedure many times when standing on the top of the car park watching the inbounds on approach. It was mainly Cathay & Dragonair but not exclusively. Tried it myself in the sim and found the line up much more comfortable.
I can definitely confirm this to be true only in as much that I personally observed this procedure many times when standing on the top of the car park watching the inbounds on approach. It was mainly Cathay & Dragonair but not exclusively. Tried it myself in the sim and found the line up much more comfortable.
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Glad to see some replies !
Flap5, I'd like to ask Dragon Air guys, but how and where ? I live in France.
Flp 5 and Avman, did Cathay and the likes went far to the left ? If they were more on the left and turned latter, I guess they passed closer to the checkerboard hill than others didn't they ? And with much higher bank angles ?
Did you see them turn left before to turn right, or was it initiated much earlier ?
Thanks
BBB
Flap5, I'd like to ask Dragon Air guys, but how and where ? I live in France.
Flp 5 and Avman, did Cathay and the likes went far to the left ? If they were more on the left and turned latter, I guess they passed closer to the checkerboard hill than others didn't they ? And with much higher bank angles ?
Did you see them turn left before to turn right, or was it initiated much earlier ?
Thanks
BBB
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My wife reminded me that it wasn't from the car park but standing next to the checkerboard, as we did once, that it was most noticeable. Yes it was very gradual with no noticeable left bank that we can remember. To be honest I can't recall if they came closer to the checkerboard with a higher bank angle. If I'm not wrong (and plenty will soon tell me if I am 
) they started the turn-in sooner but at a shallower bank angle or even in two steps. Would that make sense? Only a Cathay pilot can answer that one. What I do definitely recall is mentally noting that they approached the checkerboard left of the localiser when visibility permitted.
[This message has been edited by Avman (edited 15 April 2001).]
) they started the turn-in sooner but at a shallower bank angle or even in two steps. Would that make sense? Only a Cathay pilot can answer that one. What I do definitely recall is mentally noting that they approached the checkerboard left of the localiser when visibility permitted.[This message has been edited by Avman (edited 15 April 2001).]
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Both of those shots were taken using a telephoto lens. If you look at the PAPI's for the United approach you will see that he is about spot on. The Korean aircraft may be going slightly though the extended centre line, but not by much.
That is what the approach was like. Probably quite hairy for some pilots who rarely visited Kai Tak, but for those of us based there it was a straight forward and fun approach. The only problem was with a stong crosswind as you turned on to the extended centre line or, even worse, a sudden rain shower hitting you as you were turning the corner!
That is what the approach was like. Probably quite hairy for some pilots who rarely visited Kai Tak, but for those of us based there it was a straight forward and fun approach. The only problem was with a stong crosswind as you turned on to the extended centre line or, even worse, a sudden rain shower hitting you as you were turning the corner!
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<<A fellow PPRuNer, John MacCalman, produced an excellent radio documentary on Kai Tak, winning a Sony Radio Award if I remember rightly>>
I wish it had won me a Sony Award but no luck. What I valued more was the help I got from the aviation community in making the documentary.
If the link to http://www.airlinepilots.com/Interview/KaiTak.htm doesn't work or anyone wants a cassette copy of the Kai Tak documentary I am happy to make copies for any PPRuNers as a thank you for this websites ability to keep me aler! E mail me at [email protected]
On the subject of who flew on what side of the IGS my my limited experience was Cathay to the left, Speedbird and NWA straight down the middle, KAL sideways..... China Airlines ......
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John MacCalman
3CDigital.com
I wish it had won me a Sony Award but no luck. What I valued more was the help I got from the aviation community in making the documentary.
If the link to http://www.airlinepilots.com/Interview/KaiTak.htm doesn't work or anyone wants a cassette copy of the Kai Tak documentary I am happy to make copies for any PPRuNers as a thank you for this websites ability to keep me aler! E mail me at [email protected]
On the subject of who flew on what side of the IGS my my limited experience was Cathay to the left, Speedbird and NWA straight down the middle, KAL sideways..... China Airlines ......
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John MacCalman
3CDigital.com
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Was it at least a Sony Radio Award nominee then ?? 
Still an excellent documentary John whatever it's status. !! I don't suppose your Britannia Airways to Florida documentary is on the net is it ?? That's another good piece of work.
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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Still an excellent documentary John whatever it's status. !! I don't suppose your Britannia Airways to Florida documentary is on the net is it ?? That's another good piece of work.
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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BBB,
I flew both the A330 and the A320 from Kai Tak. The 330 was the most stable but was no problem for a sharp right turn.
On becoming visual you would change from heading/vertical speed to track/ flight path angle and switch off the F/D (leaving the FPV). The A330 would retain the preset 136 track for the extended centre line, but A320 would not.
You would continue in normal law until flare law (direct law) automatically came in during the flare. However sometimes we would take out the A/P and F/D to fly the IGS approach - but this was still easy on track/FPA.
I flew both the A330 and the A320 from Kai Tak. The 330 was the most stable but was no problem for a sharp right turn.
On becoming visual you would change from heading/vertical speed to track/ flight path angle and switch off the F/D (leaving the FPV). The A330 would retain the preset 136 track for the extended centre line, but A320 would not.
You would continue in normal law until flare law (direct law) automatically came in during the flare. However sometimes we would take out the A/P and F/D to fly the IGS approach - but this was still easy on track/FPA.
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I used to fly the L-1011 & 744 based out of HKG. Personally, I used to go left if the vis was ok, but I always practiced one "loc to mins" a month on the L-1011, just so I could do it in anger if the wx was crummy.
An interesting point for those of you crowing about the cons of using the lights: those were for the CC ( Cheung Chau ) approach, and came in slightly from the right of the IGS centerline - using them was fine, providing you knew at night in poor vis/rain where to expect to see the lead-ins, ie from the right.
I am fortunate enough to have a video from the L-10 jumpseat of a night IGS - one of my favourite party tapes.
Another reason to go left and shallow the turn was that it made the cross-cockpit vis for the Capt that much better if it was his leg.
I think the trickiest wind ( other than a typhoon !!) was from about 210. This made for a tailwind on the IGS 3.1 slope, leaving a low pwr setting, turning early to allow for thru-turn drift into a headwind component and the resulting performance gain. Tempting to pull the power back more.....but leave it where it is or it'll all go to tears and drinks all round at the Cathay Club....
The approach into Washington National landing south has some of the fun of Kai Tak.
An interesting point for those of you crowing about the cons of using the lights: those were for the CC ( Cheung Chau ) approach, and came in slightly from the right of the IGS centerline - using them was fine, providing you knew at night in poor vis/rain where to expect to see the lead-ins, ie from the right.
I am fortunate enough to have a video from the L-10 jumpseat of a night IGS - one of my favourite party tapes.
Another reason to go left and shallow the turn was that it made the cross-cockpit vis for the Capt that much better if it was his leg.
I think the trickiest wind ( other than a typhoon !!) was from about 210. This made for a tailwind on the IGS 3.1 slope, leaving a low pwr setting, turning early to allow for thru-turn drift into a headwind component and the resulting performance gain. Tempting to pull the power back more.....but leave it where it is or it'll all go to tears and drinks all round at the Cathay Club....
The approach into Washington National landing south has some of the fun of Kai Tak.
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<<<Was it at least a Sony Radio Award nominee then ?? Still an excellent documentary John whatever it's status.>>>
Sorry... Mr Sony din't think so.
<< !! I don't suppose your Britannia Airways to Florida documentary is on the net is it ?? That's another good piece of work.>>>
Now that was an award winner. Gold Medal at the 1993 New York Radio Festival. Good taste those Yanks <G>. Unfortunately its not web hosted anywhere. If anybody wants to I'll happily supply the audio but it does last almost 1 hour.
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John MacCalman
3CDigital.com
