Command Tips.
Guest
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Ummmm...pardon my intrusion into this little squabble folks, but I've been on holidays for the past three weeks and when I was away, a few things appear to have changed.
RAFAT, help me out here. When I left, England and Ireland were on the same side of the Atlantic. Have they moved one of them?...Can't find that darned NOTAM....
RAFAT, help me out here. When I left, England and Ireland were on the same side of the Atlantic. Have they moved one of them?...Can't find that darned NOTAM....
Guest
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It's just that I was looking at your profile (UK) and that of Liffy (Ireland) and in your post where you are addressing a remark to him (her?) you implied that he was on the other side of the Atlantic???
It struck me as rather humorous, because when I went on holiday, both U.K. and Ireland...as far as I remember, were on the same side of the Atlantic...
I have an early morning departure tomorrow, and having been away for several weeks I just wanted to make sure that nothing drastic had changed in the time that I'd been away. Your statement in the post above kind of threw me off. I still can't seem to find that NOTAM....
It struck me as rather humorous, because when I went on holiday, both U.K. and Ireland...as far as I remember, were on the same side of the Atlantic...
I have an early morning departure tomorrow, and having been away for several weeks I just wanted to make sure that nothing drastic had changed in the time that I'd been away. Your statement in the post above kind of threw me off. I still can't seem to find that NOTAM....
Guest
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Inevitable, I suppose, that this thread was going to go off track somewhere along the line; they usually do. Someone says something which is taken in the wrong way or it's said in an unintentional way and interpretted badly etc.etc.
Whilst we're on the subject, I didn't take the comment the wrong way. If I'd understood, as Rafat obviously did, that 'mundane tasks' should be offloaded as a matter of course, then I too may have taken offence. However, I took it to mean that when some incident/matter/occurrence requires the captain's attention then tasks, which have to be done, should be delegated.
Let's see if I can express myself here: Sometimes things come up; it may be a problem in the cabin, or a technical problem which requires the intervention of an engineer, or a session in the library; maybe it's a logistical problem with luggage or fuel... whatever. Most of these things are, ultimately, problems only the captain has the final say on. Most of these instances will draw his/her attention away from the preparation sequence associated with a turnaround. Personally, I'm only too happy to unburden my colleague and do feel very useful. I'll happily do the walkround and the interior setup and necessary paperwork which are, under normal circumstances, shared tasks. Notwithstanding this, I expect to be kept in the loop and have the situation explained to me. In the event of any special considerations I also expect to be consulted. Many FO's are like that and I'm sure Rafat is no exception. I'm also pretty confident that this is what CYB meant.
So, that said, let's return to the matter at hand because I find this all informative stuff. When it's died a death I will print it out and keep it.
Thank you all for your contributions and please keep them coming.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 01 February 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 01 February 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 01 February 2001).]
Whilst we're on the subject, I didn't take the comment the wrong way. If I'd understood, as Rafat obviously did, that 'mundane tasks' should be offloaded as a matter of course, then I too may have taken offence. However, I took it to mean that when some incident/matter/occurrence requires the captain's attention then tasks, which have to be done, should be delegated.
Let's see if I can express myself here: Sometimes things come up; it may be a problem in the cabin, or a technical problem which requires the intervention of an engineer, or a session in the library; maybe it's a logistical problem with luggage or fuel... whatever. Most of these things are, ultimately, problems only the captain has the final say on. Most of these instances will draw his/her attention away from the preparation sequence associated with a turnaround. Personally, I'm only too happy to unburden my colleague and do feel very useful. I'll happily do the walkround and the interior setup and necessary paperwork which are, under normal circumstances, shared tasks. Notwithstanding this, I expect to be kept in the loop and have the situation explained to me. In the event of any special considerations I also expect to be consulted. Many FO's are like that and I'm sure Rafat is no exception. I'm also pretty confident that this is what CYB meant.
So, that said, let's return to the matter at hand because I find this all informative stuff. When it's died a death I will print it out and keep it.
Thank you all for your contributions and please keep them coming.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 01 February 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 01 February 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 01 February 2001).]
Guest
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Secret Squirrel
Yes sir, that's exactly what I meant. In retrospect, perhaps a better way to have worded it would have been to use 'routine' instead of 'mundane'. In any case, with only one exception, everyone seems to have realized the intent of what I had to say without looking for slights, implied or hidden meanings, which there weren't any.
Enjoy your command. You are obviously ready for it. As I remarked previously, it's the best job in the world. You'll love it.
LIFFY
Thanks for the nice comment. The feeling is mutual.
[This message has been edited by CallYouBack (edited 01 February 2001).]
Yes sir, that's exactly what I meant. In retrospect, perhaps a better way to have worded it would have been to use 'routine' instead of 'mundane'. In any case, with only one exception, everyone seems to have realized the intent of what I had to say without looking for slights, implied or hidden meanings, which there weren't any.
Enjoy your command. You are obviously ready for it. As I remarked previously, it's the best job in the world. You'll love it.
LIFFY
Thanks for the nice comment. The feeling is mutual.
[This message has been edited by CallYouBack (edited 01 February 2001).]
Guest
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Dont mean to dampen your spirits but with only 2000 hours you wouldnt be eligible for a co-pilot seat in one of the US majors.Presumably you're talking commuter...in which case the best of luck to you.The actual job of aircraft commander remains the same whatever you fly from BE1900 to 744.
Call you back's comments about delegating 'mundane stuff' to the FO is incorrect but RFAT's response to this is inappropiate.CRM originated in the States and all crew members are encouraged to play a full assertive role.
Call you back's comments about delegating 'mundane stuff' to the FO is incorrect but RFAT's response to this is inappropiate.CRM originated in the States and all crew members are encouraged to play a full assertive role.
Guest
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In an attempt to bring this thread back to the point of Secret Squirrel's question:
"Act the part, and don't do anything daring, dumb or different" (from an RAF heavy QFI many years ago)
Get well soon SS, and good luck.
[This message has been edited by Jumbo Jockey (edited 04 February 2001).]
"Act the part, and don't do anything daring, dumb or different" (from an RAF heavy QFI many years ago)
Get well soon SS, and good luck.
[This message has been edited by Jumbo Jockey (edited 04 February 2001).]
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One of the vital tasks a Captain has is to bring on the F/O's he flies with; he does this by, amongst other things, example and encouraging active decision-making, ("it's your leg; you run it." Or "Although it's my leg, what do you think the correct thing to do is here?").
Guest
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Rananim, my spirits are far from dampened, my friend. If you wish to know, it's going to be BAe 146 with a regional airline which flies anywhere in Europe within it's reach, i.e. around 700kms range. I will just say that out of my 2,100 hours all but 400 are commercial and I have seen four winters. Not, by any stretch of the imagination, a world of experience. This is my point, and the reason for my seeking advice. I consider myself very fortunate to be given the chance. Although I don't consider myself as ready as I'd like to be, I wonder if I ever will. I am no spring chicken and recent developements at CFE means I have a chance to hold a command within a UK major due to grandfather rights, so I cannot turn it down. I wish I had a couple of thousand hours and a couple of winters more but unfortunately I don't.
Your claim that CRM originated in the USA, is correct but not, funnily enough, in the aviation industry; the concept began in the space program. It was the British who first identified the problem within the aviation industry when Capt Stanley Keys, a fearsome training captain in BEA, as it was then, had a heart attack and the FO with him was too frightened to correct the situation. The result was a smoking hole in the ground in the middle of Staines. Up until this accident, attitudes such as those held by Keys were largely encouraged by the airlines, especially British ones. It was BEA who first addressed the problem within their airline, the British gave the problem a name and raised awareness back in the 70's.
Stephen John, thankyou, I'm much better now and have my course in March now.
Thanks all for your replies.
Regards SS.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 06 February 2001).]
Your claim that CRM originated in the USA, is correct but not, funnily enough, in the aviation industry; the concept began in the space program. It was the British who first identified the problem within the aviation industry when Capt Stanley Keys, a fearsome training captain in BEA, as it was then, had a heart attack and the FO with him was too frightened to correct the situation. The result was a smoking hole in the ground in the middle of Staines. Up until this accident, attitudes such as those held by Keys were largely encouraged by the airlines, especially British ones. It was BEA who first addressed the problem within their airline, the British gave the problem a name and raised awareness back in the 70's.
Stephen John, thankyou, I'm much better now and have my course in March now.
Thanks all for your replies.
Regards SS.
------------------
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 06 February 2001).]
Guest
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Secret Squirrel
I realise it was a passing reference, made whilst you were commenting on CRM matters, but you said the P2 in the Trident accident at Staines, 18 June 1972, was
The AAIB report, available at www.open.gov.uk/aaib/garpi/garpi.htm contains no such allegation or finding. You may care to enlighten those of us who were around at the time, and knew the crew member concerned, as to the source of your information that enables you to make this claim about him, and to present it as fact.
Whatever else went wrong that day, and I readily admit that there was much that did, comments about being too frightened are wide of the mark and frankly in rather poor taste.
If, on reflection, you agree, perhaps you would consider withdrawing the remark?
I realise it was a passing reference, made whilst you were commenting on CRM matters, but you said the P2 in the Trident accident at Staines, 18 June 1972, was
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">too frightened to correct the situation</font>
Whatever else went wrong that day, and I readily admit that there was much that did, comments about being too frightened are wide of the mark and frankly in rather poor taste.
If, on reflection, you agree, perhaps you would consider withdrawing the remark?
Guest
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I am not of your generation and go only by what I have read. Firstly, let me make clear that I was casting no aspersions on the FO concerned. What I meant by this comment, possibly poorly phrased, was that the Captain was, by all accounts, a very imposing character who would not put up with the sort of challenge now expected from FO's today. In reality, the AAIB report was as much poor conjecture on the final moments as anything alse due to the lack of adequate recording systems at that time. It is suggested that the droops were pulled up before time and that the FO may have instinctively followed Keys command without question.
Whether you like it or not, and having been around at the time you should know, it is clear that the sort of cockpit atmosphere that Keys - and others - liked to run fell far short of what is now considered to be safe. You possibly don't remember what it is like to be intimidated by a senior training captain who holds your carreer in the next miligram of his biro ink.
I apologise if you understood that I was calling the FO a coward, I was NOT. I merely made the comment to ilustrate what kind of atmosphere Keys liked to foment. From what I understand there were two FO's in the flight deck that day and neither of them challenged him. Keys' fault, absolutely. Training captains like that still exist, unfortunately albeit almost extinct, thankfully. As recently as the Swissair crash where the decision was to land ASAP was overruled by a beligerent captain in favour of reducing the landing weight, the evidence is there.
So, if your gripe was because you thought I was accusing the unfortunate FO's of anything or laying any blame on them then yes, I retract the comment as it was said. However, if you were a friend of Keys, then you only had to go into the lavatories to see the writing on the wall! I won't repeat it here as it would be in bad taste but I'm sure you know what I mean.
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 06 February 2001).]
Whether you like it or not, and having been around at the time you should know, it is clear that the sort of cockpit atmosphere that Keys - and others - liked to run fell far short of what is now considered to be safe. You possibly don't remember what it is like to be intimidated by a senior training captain who holds your carreer in the next miligram of his biro ink.
I apologise if you understood that I was calling the FO a coward, I was NOT. I merely made the comment to ilustrate what kind of atmosphere Keys liked to foment. From what I understand there were two FO's in the flight deck that day and neither of them challenged him. Keys' fault, absolutely. Training captains like that still exist, unfortunately albeit almost extinct, thankfully. As recently as the Swissair crash where the decision was to land ASAP was overruled by a beligerent captain in favour of reducing the landing weight, the evidence is there.
So, if your gripe was because you thought I was accusing the unfortunate FO's of anything or laying any blame on them then yes, I retract the comment as it was said. However, if you were a friend of Keys, then you only had to go into the lavatories to see the writing on the wall! I won't repeat it here as it would be in bad taste but I'm sure you know what I mean.
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 06 February 2001).]
