Ratings, Ratings, Ratings . . .
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Africa
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Ratings, Ratings, Ratings . . .
Can anyone tell me why almost all the jobs these days require ratings?
It seems for every jet job out there, and most others, crew need ratings as long as the proverbial rap sheet . . .
Does any company bond for type ratings these days? Or like Korean Air "If you are successful, you will be required to seek your own type rating". I've heard that before, then the poor sods dont get hired .(ie Nationwide Airlines in South Africa - now non-existent).
We all know there are type rated pilots out there, who were layed off thanks to the recession, who are then hired by airlines all over the world. These positions are only filled for a few months to maybe 2 or 3 years. Instead of bonding a new pilot, as has been done in the past, and then hopefully gaining the loyalty of that crew member. The airlines would then not have the headache of constantly interviewing new crew.
The USA took a big knock with regards to crew being layed off. Those crew are now being employed all over the world, but, try and apply for a job back in the USA with a company that is hiring . . .Answer - "If you don't have a VISA or the right to work in the USA, then don't apply". Africa, the Middle East and Far East are more open to hiring expat crew. Great for those that can get it. Middle East airlines are always hiring and advertising for new crew, as they are purchasing new planes every month. But, you need 4000 hours, with 2500 multi crew, multi engine jet time >60 tonnes etc etc.
I refer back to spending money on ratings . . .So a pilot gets a B737 or whatever rating (and his bank is hounding him/her for the loan payments). Now that rating is not good enough. . . you need 500 hours on type! No, you need 500 hours PIC! Kinda difficult to keep up, unless you have $100, 000 spare to keep paying for ratings.
I know crew that mortgaged there homes to get ratings that they never used.
If you are young enough and can get into a cadet scheme, then good for you!! go for it!!
Sad to think that people with thousands of hours without a jet rating and time on time type might never get that chance, even though they are capable.
Then its a scary thought to think that some airlines in 3rd world countries, put cadets on B737's with 250 hours and a Sim Check ride in the UK!
Any thoughts people?
It seems for every jet job out there, and most others, crew need ratings as long as the proverbial rap sheet . . .
Does any company bond for type ratings these days? Or like Korean Air "If you are successful, you will be required to seek your own type rating". I've heard that before, then the poor sods dont get hired .(ie Nationwide Airlines in South Africa - now non-existent).
We all know there are type rated pilots out there, who were layed off thanks to the recession, who are then hired by airlines all over the world. These positions are only filled for a few months to maybe 2 or 3 years. Instead of bonding a new pilot, as has been done in the past, and then hopefully gaining the loyalty of that crew member. The airlines would then not have the headache of constantly interviewing new crew.
The USA took a big knock with regards to crew being layed off. Those crew are now being employed all over the world, but, try and apply for a job back in the USA with a company that is hiring . . .Answer - "If you don't have a VISA or the right to work in the USA, then don't apply". Africa, the Middle East and Far East are more open to hiring expat crew. Great for those that can get it. Middle East airlines are always hiring and advertising for new crew, as they are purchasing new planes every month. But, you need 4000 hours, with 2500 multi crew, multi engine jet time >60 tonnes etc etc.
I refer back to spending money on ratings . . .So a pilot gets a B737 or whatever rating (and his bank is hounding him/her for the loan payments). Now that rating is not good enough. . . you need 500 hours on type! No, you need 500 hours PIC! Kinda difficult to keep up, unless you have $100, 000 spare to keep paying for ratings.
I know crew that mortgaged there homes to get ratings that they never used.
If you are young enough and can get into a cadet scheme, then good for you!! go for it!!
Sad to think that people with thousands of hours without a jet rating and time on time type might never get that chance, even though they are capable.
Then its a scary thought to think that some airlines in 3rd world countries, put cadets on B737's with 250 hours and a Sim Check ride in the UK!
Any thoughts people?
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launchpad74
Believe me I understand your scenario.
Unless you are rich, I think you should try to get ANY job (legal of course) flying any kind of plane. There are plenty of aircraft that don't require type ratings, certainly you will not be paid well.
Understand that all those expat jobs around the world are only available because there are not enough local pilots with real experience.
And to get a visa to fly in the US? Well, sorry, we have lots of very , very experienced pilots and we probably don't need you.
You could of course marry a US woman and someday get to live here with proper right to work.
But don't do that!
I never had to pay for a type rating. Eventually, and it may take five years or more , with not one iota of a guarantee, you might get a job flying a jet.
A son of a pilot buddy of mine, just got a job as copilot on a QQ400 in the US. He didn't have a type rating or thousands of flying hours...just a CFI background.
granted , he won't be paid well.
just keep looking around and take a lesser form of aviation job.
Believe me I understand your scenario.
Unless you are rich, I think you should try to get ANY job (legal of course) flying any kind of plane. There are plenty of aircraft that don't require type ratings, certainly you will not be paid well.
Understand that all those expat jobs around the world are only available because there are not enough local pilots with real experience.
And to get a visa to fly in the US? Well, sorry, we have lots of very , very experienced pilots and we probably don't need you.
You could of course marry a US woman and someday get to live here with proper right to work.
But don't do that!
I never had to pay for a type rating. Eventually, and it may take five years or more , with not one iota of a guarantee, you might get a job flying a jet.
A son of a pilot buddy of mine, just got a job as copilot on a QQ400 in the US. He didn't have a type rating or thousands of flying hours...just a CFI background.
granted , he won't be paid well.
just keep looking around and take a lesser form of aviation job.
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There isn't a problem apart from having too many newbies for the jobs available. When the pendulum swings the job ads. will ask for pilots with preferably two eyes and legs and the right to work on Earth. There never has been nor will there ever be the perfect answer for those who are prepared to finance their own entry into the market. Only when the supply and demand sides of the pilot recruitment system mesh will the problem be solved. So the short term solution for newbies is to do what has been proposed by many on these and similar pages - find another career until the market picks up.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I can well remember the advert;
"B737 pilots required, UK ATPL, type rated and 500hrs on type" -
that was in 1978/9, nothing has really changed except that there is now a huge abundance of young people with a brand new licence, but no hours, as money has become more available. The phenomena of young pilots leaving flight school with a new CPL/IR licence, (ATPL written passed), 250 hours and then buying their way into the RHS of a 50+ton jet, leap-frogging not just a few rungs but the entire basic flying experience ladder, is relatively new.
Back in the seventies and eighties the 'Self Improvers', as they were then called, were few and far between and mainly came via the PPL, Instructor Rating and CPL/IR route, eventually landing a job in air taxi and then hours building, applying for every RHS job that was advertised. All this could take up to ten years to achieve, so the first RHS job would be landed with up to 5000hrs total, most of it P1, on a mix of twins and if lucky, twin turbine too. A well rounded, mature, self reliant and experienced pilot ready for the next step up the ladder, the kind of person a company was prepared to invest in with a type rating.
"B737 pilots required, UK ATPL, type rated and 500hrs on type" -
that was in 1978/9, nothing has really changed except that there is now a huge abundance of young people with a brand new licence, but no hours, as money has become more available. The phenomena of young pilots leaving flight school with a new CPL/IR licence, (ATPL written passed), 250 hours and then buying their way into the RHS of a 50+ton jet, leap-frogging not just a few rungs but the entire basic flying experience ladder, is relatively new.
Back in the seventies and eighties the 'Self Improvers', as they were then called, were few and far between and mainly came via the PPL, Instructor Rating and CPL/IR route, eventually landing a job in air taxi and then hours building, applying for every RHS job that was advertised. All this could take up to ten years to achieve, so the first RHS job would be landed with up to 5000hrs total, most of it P1, on a mix of twins and if lucky, twin turbine too. A well rounded, mature, self reliant and experienced pilot ready for the next step up the ladder, the kind of person a company was prepared to invest in with a type rating.
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Before you complain about all those rated US pilots working abroad, let's not forget that many of us spent 10 or 20 years getting to where we are, working jobs and wages that would scarcely keep a fruitfly alive, barely making it, and dint' get anything over night. Most of us didn't pay for our ratings; we earned them over long, long years and man countless hours of hard work.
When going abroad, nobody goes into a country that doesn't allow them to work; the original poster seems to be complaining that US pilots go abroad and take jobs, but those jobs are open to anyone qualified. That US pilots are granted visas is up to the country and the company.
The original poster seems to be complaining about not being able to work in the US. Ample pilots exist to fill jobs in the US without any need to bring in outside work.
The original poster seems to be complaining about jobs that require qualified applicants. It's not often that one finds jobs advertising unqualified applicants.
I find it remarkable that one can complain about an employer setting standards of employment, or about an employer that seeks a qualified applicant. If one isn't qualified, the solution it would seem, is simple. Get qualified, or seek work elsewhere.
When going abroad, nobody goes into a country that doesn't allow them to work; the original poster seems to be complaining that US pilots go abroad and take jobs, but those jobs are open to anyone qualified. That US pilots are granted visas is up to the country and the company.
The original poster seems to be complaining about not being able to work in the US. Ample pilots exist to fill jobs in the US without any need to bring in outside work.
The original poster seems to be complaining about jobs that require qualified applicants. It's not often that one finds jobs advertising unqualified applicants.
I find it remarkable that one can complain about an employer setting standards of employment, or about an employer that seeks a qualified applicant. If one isn't qualified, the solution it would seem, is simple. Get qualified, or seek work elsewhere.
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Yes it is fairly simple really.
The jobs require ratings, because the regulator requires that the individual holds a type rating before they can operate in a public transport role on that particular type of aircraft.
If you look back over the last 15 years or so on PPRuNe, you will see the evidence of how this scenario has progressed.
In the mid nineties airlines would type rate suitable candidates at the companies expense. That spawned a generation of specific individuals who utilized this training to their own advantage, taking the rating and using it to move on to another company where the perceived grass was greener. Airlines felt aggrieved at this behaviour and introduced contract "bonding" to ensure their investment was protected.
After the "bonding" outcries died down, there then followed the regular posts from the "Can you help me break my bond" brigade. Many of these people entered into contracts, seemingly without reading them, or in the belief that they could break them without satisfying the escape conditions.
Airlines found this tiresome and decided to shift the fiscal burden onto the candidate. You need the rating, so you pay for it. How you pay for it is your problem.
This has now evolved into new pilots who will pay for not only their type ratings, but also for a full two year approved training course in order to occupy those right hand seats. The applicants assume all the risk. They are flexible, usually on short term or seasonal contracts, and have as a result, provided significant cost savings for the subscribing airlines. Who needs Low hour CPL holders with patchy and inconsistent training histories, when there are are plenty of "cadet programme" candidates ready , willing and able to fund full time, recognised training schemes, as well as their own type ratings and integration costs.
The jobs require ratings, because the regulator requires that the individual holds a type rating before they can operate in a public transport role on that particular type of aircraft.
If you look back over the last 15 years or so on PPRuNe, you will see the evidence of how this scenario has progressed.
In the mid nineties airlines would type rate suitable candidates at the companies expense. That spawned a generation of specific individuals who utilized this training to their own advantage, taking the rating and using it to move on to another company where the perceived grass was greener. Airlines felt aggrieved at this behaviour and introduced contract "bonding" to ensure their investment was protected.
After the "bonding" outcries died down, there then followed the regular posts from the "Can you help me break my bond" brigade. Many of these people entered into contracts, seemingly without reading them, or in the belief that they could break them without satisfying the escape conditions.
Airlines found this tiresome and decided to shift the fiscal burden onto the candidate. You need the rating, so you pay for it. How you pay for it is your problem.
This has now evolved into new pilots who will pay for not only their type ratings, but also for a full two year approved training course in order to occupy those right hand seats. The applicants assume all the risk. They are flexible, usually on short term or seasonal contracts, and have as a result, provided significant cost savings for the subscribing airlines. Who needs Low hour CPL holders with patchy and inconsistent training histories, when there are are plenty of "cadet programme" candidates ready , willing and able to fund full time, recognised training schemes, as well as their own type ratings and integration costs.
