Passenger Seat Back latching - Important?
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Passenger Seat Back latching - Important?
Does it matter if a seat back won't stay in the upright position for takeoff and/or landing? Does it have safety implications?
Should cabin staff care?
Should a captain or an airline care?
On a flight from Geneva to Luton last week, I got seat 18c, on the aisle. The seat back was in reclined (slightly - as far as it goes) position. I knew from previous flights that I would be asked to put it as far upright as it goes for T/O so I did it myself. After a minute or so of normal leaning back on it, it slowly (as if on a hydraulic damper) reclined itself. I thought I must have failed to latch it properly so I did put it up again and made sure it was firmly held. Again after a minute or so it slowly lowered itself.
Just before T/O a cabin attendant came round and told me to put it up. I explained that it was defective. She ignored that and made me put it up again. I did. She went away. The seat back subsided again.
When we started descent for LTN, the same attendant reached my seat and told me to put the back up. I told her again it was defective and wouldn't stay there. She made me put it up again. I did. She went away. The seat back subsided again.
She came back and the episode repeated itself.
Finally, her colleague came by, saw the seat back reclined, and we went through it all again. I was pretty exasperated by this time. She told me I should speak nicely to her and made me put the seat up again. I did. She went away. The seat back subsided again. The passenger next to me who had observed all these incidents said to me "she was a bit naughty, speaking to you like that!".
Not wishing to be accused of air rage, get forcibly retrained, and then arrested, I left matters there until the flight was over.
Then I tried to speak to the captain to ask if it was a reportable problem that this seat was defective. I was told he was too busy.
So: a) my questions as above - is there a safety issue with these seats, and should someone care?
b) If a pax draws attention of cabin crew to such a seat, is the right approach for them to ignore the symptom and tell the passenger to do it right and not complain? Or is there another, preferred, way of cabin crew handling defective seat issues and the people who tell them about them?
Chris N.
Should cabin staff care?
Should a captain or an airline care?
On a flight from Geneva to Luton last week, I got seat 18c, on the aisle. The seat back was in reclined (slightly - as far as it goes) position. I knew from previous flights that I would be asked to put it as far upright as it goes for T/O so I did it myself. After a minute or so of normal leaning back on it, it slowly (as if on a hydraulic damper) reclined itself. I thought I must have failed to latch it properly so I did put it up again and made sure it was firmly held. Again after a minute or so it slowly lowered itself.
Just before T/O a cabin attendant came round and told me to put it up. I explained that it was defective. She ignored that and made me put it up again. I did. She went away. The seat back subsided again.
When we started descent for LTN, the same attendant reached my seat and told me to put the back up. I told her again it was defective and wouldn't stay there. She made me put it up again. I did. She went away. The seat back subsided again.
She came back and the episode repeated itself.
Finally, her colleague came by, saw the seat back reclined, and we went through it all again. I was pretty exasperated by this time. She told me I should speak nicely to her and made me put the seat up again. I did. She went away. The seat back subsided again. The passenger next to me who had observed all these incidents said to me "she was a bit naughty, speaking to you like that!".
Not wishing to be accused of air rage, get forcibly retrained, and then arrested, I left matters there until the flight was over.
Then I tried to speak to the captain to ask if it was a reportable problem that this seat was defective. I was told he was too busy.
So: a) my questions as above - is there a safety issue with these seats, and should someone care?
b) If a pax draws attention of cabin crew to such a seat, is the right approach for them to ignore the symptom and tell the passenger to do it right and not complain? Or is there another, preferred, way of cabin crew handling defective seat issues and the people who tell them about them?
Chris N.
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The Chief Cabin Crew / Purser / Customer Service Manager / Chief Cart Tart / whatever name you want to give him or her, normally has a 'Cabin Defects Book'. During a flight, if the Head Cabin Crew becomes aware of a cabin defect, like a pax seat that won't stay upright, they enter the defect in the book, and during the next turnaround the engineers try to fix it.
As far as your particular episode goes, the waters are muddied by those pax who, after being told to put their seats upright, do so, then recline them as soon as the Cabin Crew's back is turned.
As far as your particular episode goes, the waters are muddied by those pax who, after being told to put their seats upright, do so, then recline them as soon as the Cabin Crew's back is turned.
Inform the cabin staff that the seat is defective and needs to be fixed or replaced before take-off.
If this cannot be done, ask to be assigned another seat.
If nobody cares to pay due attention to your information report the seat number, carrier, flight number and date to the local CAA.
If this cannot be done, ask to be assigned another seat.
If nobody cares to pay due attention to your information report the seat number, carrier, flight number and date to the local CAA.
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I don't believe that the seatbacks are actually "latched" in position. From the feel of it it seems that hydraulic pressure holds them in position.
It is unfortunate that the captain concerned deigned not to speak to you. Even if he had been unable to help it would have shown some consideration if he had actually discussed your problem. Still, it may have been a training flight or his 5th flight of the day so who are we to judge...
It is unfortunate that the captain concerned deigned not to speak to you. Even if he had been unable to help it would have shown some consideration if he had actually discussed your problem. Still, it may have been a training flight or his 5th flight of the day so who are we to judge...
The seatback does not actually latch in position. Previous posting is correct, a hydraulic damper (called a gas strut) allows motion forward and back within pre-set limits defined by the seat manufacturer. A seat which reclines with only passenger pressure applied without pushing on the recline button is most likely leaking pressure through a faulty seal within the gas strut. This should be acknowledged by the cabin crew member, noted in the cabin defects book, and (IMHO) should render said seat as unserviceable until repaired.
It does have a safety implication as a reclined seat will impede the escape of anyone sitting behind it in the event of an emergency. The captain should have spoken to the passenger (if indeed he was actually told and it wasn't simply a case of fobbing off the passenger) about the problem (even from the selfish point of improved public relations).
If, as stated, this is an ongoing problem then I'd view this as a blatant disregard for a safety issue by the airline in question, and they'd be on very shaky ground if the CAA or other authority were made aware of the fact!
Probably wrong, but was this any of the 'low-cost' operators? Me senses a link!!!
[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: rhythm method ]
It does have a safety implication as a reclined seat will impede the escape of anyone sitting behind it in the event of an emergency. The captain should have spoken to the passenger (if indeed he was actually told and it wasn't simply a case of fobbing off the passenger) about the problem (even from the selfish point of improved public relations).
If, as stated, this is an ongoing problem then I'd view this as a blatant disregard for a safety issue by the airline in question, and they'd be on very shaky ground if the CAA or other authority were made aware of the fact!
Probably wrong, but was this any of the 'low-cost' operators? Me senses a link!!!
[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: rhythm method ]
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"Sam Sez": the latched seat in the upright position is a silly over-reaction. Only seats in exit positions should be checked. But, in a 'non-discrimination' frenzy, the FAA decided that ALL seats have to be upright, because it was 'unfair' to clear the seats only for the exit rows. Hence, the stupidity of 'All Seats Have To Be In The Upright Position'. Again, PC gone crazy.
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Sam
I beg to differ.....
A passenger in a window seat would be impeded if the aisle seat in front of them was in the reclined position, as would, to a lesser extent, the passenger in the aisle seat immediately behind one which was reclined.
In my experience, a fully reclined seat on just about every aircraft will prevent a passenger in the seat behind from standing upright in front of their own seat.
In normal disembarkation this is annoying. When the cabin is full of smoke and screaming SLF, potentially fatal.
I beg to differ.....
A passenger in a window seat would be impeded if the aisle seat in front of them was in the reclined position, as would, to a lesser extent, the passenger in the aisle seat immediately behind one which was reclined.
In my experience, a fully reclined seat on just about every aircraft will prevent a passenger in the seat behind from standing upright in front of their own seat.
In normal disembarkation this is annoying. When the cabin is full of smoke and screaming SLF, potentially fatal.
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It is important, it decreases head room of the person behind in the brace position.
Had same the fault on my last Ansett 737 flight. Polite young gentleman said with a smile "Okay we will get fixed in the next week or so". However unless it was fixed that night, somewhere in Oz is 737 with dodgey F13 seat back. It was quicker acting took about 10 seconds to recline.
However I have noticed with increasing girth and stuffing my pockets full of junk it is possible to activate the recline button without being aware of it. Now that the ash tray is mostly redundant perhap a redesigned armrest could have the recline button on the front to increase the comfort of us suffering from late middle aged spread. I notice the audio plugs have migrated there already on some a/c.
Had same the fault on my last Ansett 737 flight. Polite young gentleman said with a smile "Okay we will get fixed in the next week or so". However unless it was fixed that night, somewhere in Oz is 737 with dodgey F13 seat back. It was quicker acting took about 10 seconds to recline.
However I have noticed with increasing girth and stuffing my pockets full of junk it is possible to activate the recline button without being aware of it. Now that the ash tray is mostly redundant perhap a redesigned armrest could have the recline button on the front to increase the comfort of us suffering from late middle aged spread. I notice the audio plugs have migrated there already on some a/c.
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As I'm bigger than Mr Boeing & Mr Airbus belive anyone can be. I suffer with "Fat leg activates the Recline button" syndrome. Which means I recline every 2 to 4 minutes prior to take off. However I just put my seat back into the upright position straight away. Knowing that thats where it should be until after take off. I personally don't wait to to be told several times by busy crew to put the seat up.
Yes it is not your fault, but either ask to be moved before pushback because of the fault or co-operate with the crew and do as your told!!.
There's bigger things in life than having to lean forward during taxi & take off, for chrissake.
Yes it is not your fault, but either ask to be moved before pushback because of the fault or co-operate with the crew and do as your told!!.
There's bigger things in life than having to lean forward during taxi & take off, for chrissake.
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Probably wrong, but was this any of the 'low-cost' operators? Me senses a link!!!
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Thanks to all who replied. It confirmed my suspicion that it has a safety implication, and in case the airline has not yet found and fixed it I will write to them.
Chris N.
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Tell you what, I wouldn't like to be upright behind someone with a reclined seat while in economy style seating if the takeoff is aborted from high speed. Leave you with a bit of a headache I think...
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Tom, the difference in position of the top of the seat from fully upright to fully "reclined" was about 6 inches. Closer to the next pax behind than desirable, but not as close as in some seats when reclined.
I have emailed the airline to advise them of the defect, in case it has not yet been picked up. I wonder if I will get an answer.
I have emailed the airline to advise them of the defect, in case it has not yet been picked up. I wonder if I will get an answer.
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Passenger Seats (including seat backs) are an MEL item on at least one Boeing model and may be inoperative and occupied providing the seat back is latched in the upright position and so placarded. This procedure requires action by a qualified mechanic.
Alternatively, a seat back retaining strap may be employed IF passenger access is not restricted. This procedure may be accomplished by flight crew and requires placarding.
Alternatively, a seat back may be inoperative in other than the upright position IF passenger access is not restricted, the affected seat does not restrict an emergency exit and the seat back is secured. This may be acomplisehed by flight crew and requires placarding.
Seats on and in front of an emergency row generally are modified to be non reclining.
Phew it's a little hot in here. I'd better take my anorak off now.
Alternatively, a seat back retaining strap may be employed IF passenger access is not restricted. This procedure may be accomplished by flight crew and requires placarding.
Alternatively, a seat back may be inoperative in other than the upright position IF passenger access is not restricted, the affected seat does not restrict an emergency exit and the seat back is secured. This may be acomplisehed by flight crew and requires placarding.
Seats on and in front of an emergency row generally are modified to be non reclining.
Phew it's a little hot in here. I'd better take my anorak off now.
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I had a similar thing happen to me on a LHR-ORD Virgin Flight a couple of months ago.
Whilst boarding and sitting down, I noticed that the seat back wouldn't stay upright, so I informed an FA.
Imagine my horror when the captain came on the PA to say that a small fault had been found in the aircraft and Take off would be delayed for approx 20 mins while an engineer fixed it! I felt bloody awful and wished I hadn't even mentioned it.
Anyway, the engineer quickly fixed the seat and we actually departed pretty much on time. During rotation on take off, yes you've guessed it, the seat flew back. Now economy seats may only recline 6 inches, but when the aircraft is climbing, that extra angle that the six inches gives you seems pretty bad! An FA could see me struggling to lean forward a bit but couldn't move obviously and I was essentially pinned back into the seat!
Once in the cruise, I was told that I would have to be located to another seat and this is where I got my hopes up as the cattle class was supposed to be full.
I had visions of my cruising in comfort for a change with all the other business class passengers, but unfortunately they managed to find me a seat in the middle row near the back of a jumbo.
Damn, I had lost my cushy window seat in exit row to be place in the middle of a group of hyperactive and noisy teenagers.
Ah well, such is life.
Anyway, back to the point (if I ever had one), I have to say that my experience couldn't have been more different than yours
chrisN as all the crew on board were professional and courteous when I presented the problem to them. Had they behaved like the ones on your flight, then I would have thought twice about flying that airline again.
Whilst boarding and sitting down, I noticed that the seat back wouldn't stay upright, so I informed an FA.
Imagine my horror when the captain came on the PA to say that a small fault had been found in the aircraft and Take off would be delayed for approx 20 mins while an engineer fixed it! I felt bloody awful and wished I hadn't even mentioned it.
Anyway, the engineer quickly fixed the seat and we actually departed pretty much on time. During rotation on take off, yes you've guessed it, the seat flew back. Now economy seats may only recline 6 inches, but when the aircraft is climbing, that extra angle that the six inches gives you seems pretty bad! An FA could see me struggling to lean forward a bit but couldn't move obviously and I was essentially pinned back into the seat!
Once in the cruise, I was told that I would have to be located to another seat and this is where I got my hopes up as the cattle class was supposed to be full.
I had visions of my cruising in comfort for a change with all the other business class passengers, but unfortunately they managed to find me a seat in the middle row near the back of a jumbo.
Damn, I had lost my cushy window seat in exit row to be place in the middle of a group of hyperactive and noisy teenagers.
Ah well, such is life.
Anyway, back to the point (if I ever had one), I have to say that my experience couldn't have been more different than yours
chrisN as all the crew on board were professional and courteous when I presented the problem to them. Had they behaved like the ones on your flight, then I would have thought twice about flying that airline again.
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I have flown the airline several times and had no other problems. I think it was a couple of grouchy and/or poorly trained FA's, not the whole company. Boarding started about 0600 so I guess they had been up since about 0400, not most people's best time of day (not mine, certainly).
No reply yet from the airline (I didn't name them here, though as someone remarked it's easy to guess who might have flown Geneva-Luton).
No reply yet from the airline (I didn't name them here, though as someone remarked it's easy to guess who might have flown Geneva-Luton).
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With regard to earlier posts if the seats are an MEL item the unservicability should be in the Technical Log, not the Cabin Defects (where no mandatory cabin items are snagged).
In addition comply with the restrictions in the MEL, which normally require the seat to be either unoccupied or locked in the non reclined position.
If you are a passenger who is concerned, I suggest that the easiest remedy is to email your national CAA/ FAA organisation with the date, flight no and seat, together with any observations that you might wish to make.
In addition comply with the restrictions in the MEL, which normally require the seat to be either unoccupied or locked in the non reclined position.
If you are a passenger who is concerned, I suggest that the easiest remedy is to email your national CAA/ FAA organisation with the date, flight no and seat, together with any observations that you might wish to make.
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All of the aircraft that I am familiar with, have the hydraulic actuators, as previously mentioned, for seat recline.
These actuators have a locking device with them, simply take out the locking pin which is in a stowed position on a serviceable seat, and fit it into another hole which will lock the actuator and thus the seat back.
I have also done this sometimes when travelling with an aircraft, with the Pursers knowledge, to stop these people (as previously mentioned) that recline the seats on purpose before takeoff
IF you are on a long flight, this locking pin could be very quickly removed again for the flight enabling recline, and then put back again for landing.
These actuators have a locking device with them, simply take out the locking pin which is in a stowed position on a serviceable seat, and fit it into another hole which will lock the actuator and thus the seat back.
I have also done this sometimes when travelling with an aircraft, with the Pursers knowledge, to stop these people (as previously mentioned) that recline the seats on purpose before takeoff
IF you are on a long flight, this locking pin could be very quickly removed again for the flight enabling recline, and then put back again for landing.
