Could I Land An Airliner?
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For me - probably not very likely. For a PPL holder possibly - but you'd have to be extremely lucky I guess. Especially as you'd have to find all the right levers, knobs, buttons and gauges as opposed to getting the PNF to do the flaps etc. which you get if you're trying it in the Sim.
If you've got a PPL I suppose you have some basic idea of what is required, and the effects of the controls, power, pitch attitude and other basics. If you've messed with MSFS then you may understand some of the automation, but with the stress of the moment could you recall it? I say not very well.
Flying manually then a PPL might get it on the runway in excellent weather, but the undercarriage would probably need a service afterwards!
Having flown the Trident on one of Raw Data's Sim Days (experience of real flying - zero) I was pleasantly surprised at making a landing that was survivable. Lets not say it was anything approaching good. I think I required a hard landing check after one of my attempts! I could take off OK, once I had got over using the tiller like a ships wheel (mind the grass!), although I scraped the tail the first time according to RD. Holding altitude was best described as shaky - the manually operated pitch trim wheel took some getting used to, and +/- 300 foot was the result , although it got better. (Someone mentioned this pitch attitude precision in relation to the 737 earlier and I see what they mean) Did some ILS approaches to 27L at Heathrow - one in VFR conditions was OK, although I made a point of trying to use the quirky trident HSI for LOC/GS guidance, and one in overcast to 300 foot above (or something thereabouts) was a bit of a chase about. Not perfect, but I was allowed to make all my own flap, gear calls and handle the power levers. Of course Raw Data and my PNF were assisting with some guidance on the correct pitch attitude to get a nice sink rate, which I was messing up with my over exuberant use of the trim wheel. All in all it was a fascinating insight in to how it works, but I can't see myself managing to pull it off as a raw novice under the kind of scenario described at the start of this thread.
I think if people want to try this kind of thing - then the Trident sim offers a relatively inexpensive way of getting to grips with a commercial jet. Especially as it is from the old school of aircraft bereft of the potentially daunting modern EFIS/FMC/EICAS beasts of today. Hmmm.... I might even have another go on that Trident....
If you've got a PPL I suppose you have some basic idea of what is required, and the effects of the controls, power, pitch attitude and other basics. If you've messed with MSFS then you may understand some of the automation, but with the stress of the moment could you recall it? I say not very well.
Flying manually then a PPL might get it on the runway in excellent weather, but the undercarriage would probably need a service afterwards!
Having flown the Trident on one of Raw Data's Sim Days (experience of real flying - zero) I was pleasantly surprised at making a landing that was survivable. Lets not say it was anything approaching good. I think I required a hard landing check after one of my attempts! I could take off OK, once I had got over using the tiller like a ships wheel (mind the grass!), although I scraped the tail the first time according to RD. Holding altitude was best described as shaky - the manually operated pitch trim wheel took some getting used to, and +/- 300 foot was the result , although it got better. (Someone mentioned this pitch attitude precision in relation to the 737 earlier and I see what they mean) Did some ILS approaches to 27L at Heathrow - one in VFR conditions was OK, although I made a point of trying to use the quirky trident HSI for LOC/GS guidance, and one in overcast to 300 foot above (or something thereabouts) was a bit of a chase about. Not perfect, but I was allowed to make all my own flap, gear calls and handle the power levers. Of course Raw Data and my PNF were assisting with some guidance on the correct pitch attitude to get a nice sink rate, which I was messing up with my over exuberant use of the trim wheel. All in all it was a fascinating insight in to how it works, but I can't see myself managing to pull it off as a raw novice under the kind of scenario described at the start of this thread.
I think if people want to try this kind of thing - then the Trident sim offers a relatively inexpensive way of getting to grips with a commercial jet. Especially as it is from the old school of aircraft bereft of the potentially daunting modern EFIS/FMC/EICAS beasts of today. Hmmm.... I might even have another go on that Trident....
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For those following this thread and seeing Pandoras description of what needs to be done just for an autoland (B737-400) let me try and show that a more modern design could well be easier. I use the A320 as an example but I'm sure the 777 is similar.
The main starting point is ensuring the 'box' ie the FMGC (FMC to a Boeing) is loaded correctly in regards to the Perf page. I wouldn't really wish to talk someone through programming a diversion but if there was a PPL AND and techie (computer programmer or Nintendo wiz, engineer etc) onboard then together they'd stand a better chance.
So let's assume the FMGC is fully loaded and Approach is Activated (different from Arming the Approach to capture the G/S). I'll try only to highlight the differences from Pandoras post. Actually is this happened in the cruise Activating the Approach is quite easy.
Speed should be managed if not a very simple push on the SPEED/MACH dial will sort this out. From now on speed will be controlled by the aircraft so as you extend the Flaps the speed will reduce automatically.
The ILS will autotune, all you need to do is turn on the indication on the PFD. To ident just read the ident from the PFD. Controller on ground needs only to say " Does it say I-ABC in magenta in the bottom right corner of the telly right in front of you."
The aircraft should have a complete route prgrammed in and it would be much easier to let it follow this (Managed Nav similar to LNAV) and only let the poor 'pilot' change the altitude via OPEN DESCENT in advance of needing to descend. If HDG mode is required then it's not too difficult to change and the ground guy can check what you've done by asking you to read the what the telly in front of you is saying in the 5 columns at the top of the screen.
Only the APP button will need to be pressed as it will arm both LOC and G/S and if the a/c is in the correct position this will be OK. Again (hopefully) the managed NAV will have ensured this is so.
If you don't stick in the 2nd autopilot you're only CAT3A, not essential but a simple button press is all that is needed and we become CAT3B no DH.
Extending the Flaps and lowering the gear is not too tricky especially if done early and when in managed speed. The arming of the spoilers is a simple act but essential in order to get the autobrakes to work.
If it's a long enough runway forget reverse...(this is the easy part) and do nothing what-so-ever until the a/c comes to a stop. The spoilers will deploy, the autobrakes will activate and 'roll-out' will keep the a/c on the centre line.
Then on the orders of the ground guys, apply the parking brake, just a simple turn of a lever no pressing of pedals required.
However, the flip side. If the situation is like that Airplane 7X film where a light A/C crashed into the large one taking out many of the systems...then an Airbus becomes a nightmare when you start having problems. Oh yes there are lots of back-ups etc but there is quite a bit for the pilots to do.
The other stumbling block...where is the damn radio transmit switch? It's actually the 'guns' trigger on the sidestick. But if you press the 'missiles' red button on the top of the sidestick this is the autopilot disconnect! Who would know the difference and who could you ask to find out? I personally would think this is a crucial step.
Do I think it's possible? Yeah with the right people (note people not persons as I think 2 would have a much better chance but only 1 needs to be the pilot the other needed to program the FMGC)
The main starting point is ensuring the 'box' ie the FMGC (FMC to a Boeing) is loaded correctly in regards to the Perf page. I wouldn't really wish to talk someone through programming a diversion but if there was a PPL AND and techie (computer programmer or Nintendo wiz, engineer etc) onboard then together they'd stand a better chance.
So let's assume the FMGC is fully loaded and Approach is Activated (different from Arming the Approach to capture the G/S). I'll try only to highlight the differences from Pandoras post. Actually is this happened in the cruise Activating the Approach is quite easy.
Speed should be managed if not a very simple push on the SPEED/MACH dial will sort this out. From now on speed will be controlled by the aircraft so as you extend the Flaps the speed will reduce automatically.
The ILS will autotune, all you need to do is turn on the indication on the PFD. To ident just read the ident from the PFD. Controller on ground needs only to say " Does it say I-ABC in magenta in the bottom right corner of the telly right in front of you."
The aircraft should have a complete route prgrammed in and it would be much easier to let it follow this (Managed Nav similar to LNAV) and only let the poor 'pilot' change the altitude via OPEN DESCENT in advance of needing to descend. If HDG mode is required then it's not too difficult to change and the ground guy can check what you've done by asking you to read the what the telly in front of you is saying in the 5 columns at the top of the screen.
Only the APP button will need to be pressed as it will arm both LOC and G/S and if the a/c is in the correct position this will be OK. Again (hopefully) the managed NAV will have ensured this is so.
If you don't stick in the 2nd autopilot you're only CAT3A, not essential but a simple button press is all that is needed and we become CAT3B no DH.
Extending the Flaps and lowering the gear is not too tricky especially if done early and when in managed speed. The arming of the spoilers is a simple act but essential in order to get the autobrakes to work.
If it's a long enough runway forget reverse...(this is the easy part) and do nothing what-so-ever until the a/c comes to a stop. The spoilers will deploy, the autobrakes will activate and 'roll-out' will keep the a/c on the centre line.
Then on the orders of the ground guys, apply the parking brake, just a simple turn of a lever no pressing of pedals required.
However, the flip side. If the situation is like that Airplane 7X film where a light A/C crashed into the large one taking out many of the systems...then an Airbus becomes a nightmare when you start having problems. Oh yes there are lots of back-ups etc but there is quite a bit for the pilots to do.
The other stumbling block...where is the damn radio transmit switch? It's actually the 'guns' trigger on the sidestick. But if you press the 'missiles' red button on the top of the sidestick this is the autopilot disconnect! Who would know the difference and who could you ask to find out? I personally would think this is a crucial step.
Do I think it's possible? Yeah with the right people (note people not persons as I think 2 would have a much better chance but only 1 needs to be the pilot the other needed to program the FMGC)
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Final 3 Greens & Foghorn
I've just had a great sim session with an aptly named instructor who seemed to know you and was interested in your postings!
Be warned - as he left he was muttering something about engine-out ADF approaches into a howling crosswind next time he saw you!
Character forming, I think he called it!
Saving up for another go!
I've just had a great sim session with an aptly named instructor who seemed to know you and was interested in your postings!
Be warned - as he left he was muttering something about engine-out ADF approaches into a howling crosswind next time he saw you!
Character forming, I think he called it!
Saving up for another go!
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What a fascinating topic.
I suspect a PPL might do it as long as the experience is not too overwhelming. I think that an Airbus would be easier than a Boeing due to the inbuilt safety features/envelope. If you can get the approach right and controlled then the langing should be straight forward but what happens if you have a slight crosswind, no autothrottle or maybe even a 1000' cloudbase, workload suddenly increases.
When I have instructed novices (non PPL's) on the sim it does not take very much to overload them and even PPL's can be caught out if the experience gets too engrossing.
Now make it real.
I suspect a PPL might do it as long as the experience is not too overwhelming. I think that an Airbus would be easier than a Boeing due to the inbuilt safety features/envelope. If you can get the approach right and controlled then the langing should be straight forward but what happens if you have a slight crosswind, no autothrottle or maybe even a 1000' cloudbase, workload suddenly increases.
When I have instructed novices (non PPL's) on the sim it does not take very much to overload them and even PPL's can be caught out if the experience gets too engrossing.
Now make it real.
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Before I went for the sim check for the job I have now, I went and flew that Trident sim near Biggin. I had 900 hrs-odd, about 50 on Senecas and the like, the rest on Cessnas, Tiger Moths etc. I was given a five minute briefing on how to raise and lower flaps and gear and reset the aircraft back to the start of the runway. I then flew two hours - single crew, at night, in said Trident, using B-727 speeds; mostly general handling followed by a dozen or so instrument approaches to landing. No real problems at all. A couple of days later, I went to do my sim check on a 727 sim. The training captain did the gear, set the power and flaps so the whole thing was easy-peasy. Could a competent PPL land an airliner? Hell, yes. The key word here is COMPETENT.
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VMike
Bearing in mind that the Trident is non-glass, how do you think a PPL would do if faced with EFISs that do not look like the panel that s/he is used to? I spend some time on a -400 flight deck earlier in the year and now have a rudimentary grasp of the PFDs and the colour coding etc - very clever, but quite different to the stuff that Pup drivers like me are used to.
The word from minibus drivers that I know is that handflying would be more viable than using the autopilot, because of the complexity of it.
Bearing in mind that the Trident is non-glass, how do you think a PPL would do if faced with EFISs that do not look like the panel that s/he is used to? I spend some time on a -400 flight deck earlier in the year and now have a rudimentary grasp of the PFDs and the colour coding etc - very clever, but quite different to the stuff that Pup drivers like me are used to.
The word from minibus drivers that I know is that handflying would be more viable than using the autopilot, because of the complexity of it.
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Fair point.
Whilst the Trident sim does not have quite the same instrument layout as a C152, much of it would be at least vaguely familiar to most PPLs.
The average PPL might well wonder where to start if faced with a modern glass cockpit. However, I also once had a go at an A320 sim at Gatwick and found the EFIS fairly straightforward after 20 minutes or so of playing with it. The aircraft itself was very easy to fly, especially once I got used to the inertia of the thing!
I suspect their biggest problem may not be the EFIS stuff, but using the FMS which I have to say, even after a couple of hours of playing with it, remained a mostly closed book to me.
Still, assuming the radio's working, maybe they can get vectors to a 10-mile final. I still say that most COMPETENT PPLs, certainly those with an IMC rating, should be able to put an airliner on the ground, and walk away from it - provided they can find the airport!
Whilst the Trident sim does not have quite the same instrument layout as a C152, much of it would be at least vaguely familiar to most PPLs.
The average PPL might well wonder where to start if faced with a modern glass cockpit. However, I also once had a go at an A320 sim at Gatwick and found the EFIS fairly straightforward after 20 minutes or so of playing with it. The aircraft itself was very easy to fly, especially once I got used to the inertia of the thing!
I suspect their biggest problem may not be the EFIS stuff, but using the FMS which I have to say, even after a couple of hours of playing with it, remained a mostly closed book to me.
Still, assuming the radio's working, maybe they can get vectors to a 10-mile final. I still say that most COMPETENT PPLs, certainly those with an IMC rating, should be able to put an airliner on the ground, and walk away from it - provided they can find the airport!
Sorry, has this thread been edited by the moderator, OR WHAT 
The thread started on 28th July and runs right up to today...so what?
The thread is asking how to fly an airliner and yet as the thread passes through the date 11/9/01, there isn't a flicker
Isn't this even the slightest bit suspicious?
Must be me..............................
The thread started on 28th July and runs right up to today...so what?
The thread is asking how to fly an airliner and yet as the thread passes through the date 11/9/01, there isn't a flicker
Isn't this even the slightest bit suspicious?
Must be me..............................
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Actually, I'm a long time lurker here on Pprune, and this topic (and especially it's relevence in light of recent events) is the reason I registered.
Having read thru the replies, it seems to me that you're all thinking like professional pilots - not like the poor sucker who's just found himself sitting in the cockpit.
My perspective is that of the occasional airline passenger, who's taken one of those "free first flying lessons" and who used to fix airplane/chopper radios in the national guard many years ago.
Now - given the events of 9/11, I can see a scenario in which a passenger would end up flying the plane. If you have a situation in which there is a hijacking, and the passengers revolt - the terrorist pilot puts the plane on autopilot and goes back to help control the passengers and is subdued... and they've already killed the pilots...
So, I'm assuming that I'm the first person to get to the cockpit after "we" re-take the plane. First thing I do is look out the window and make sure the plane isn't pointed toward a mountain (or a skyscraper). Next, I look for an altimeter and artificial horizon (I'm assuming even modern airliners have them - even if only as backups?) Make sure the plane is flying relatively level - if so, there's plenty of time to do this.
Next, look for the radio. Given my background, I might or might not be able to find and activate it. If I can't, then I turn around and yell over my shoulder for some help from the other passengers - all you folks back there get on your cell phones and get me connected to a tower, an airline - someone who can tell me how to use the radio and more importantly fly the plane. (I find it interesting that for all you pilots talk about cockpit resource management, I've seen very little discussed here about getting other people to help you vs doing everything yourself.)
The first passenger I see who's not screaming in panic is going to get enlisted as a go-between (at least until someone explains to me how to work the intercom). I ask them to find anyone who's a pilot and/or has played with the MS flight simulator. Assuming several people come forward, my first choice would be someone who's both, second choice is a private pilot, third choice is a computer jockey. If there are no 'real' pilots and there are a number of gamers, then all else being equal I'm picking the 14 to 16 yr old male. Why? Because the 40 yr old executive knows he's going to die - the 15 yr old knows he can land the plane. Confidence is probably better than the wisdom of age in this case.
Given that there are several people available, I'm going to put one in the pilot's seat, one in the copilot's, and another in the jumpseat. Three sets of eyes looking for a control is better than just one set. If there aren't enough "qualified" folks available, I'll take one of those seats myself.
Once we make contact by cell phone, someone can explain how to work the radio. Assuming I'm still "in charge"
, I'm going to suggest to the tower that if we have plenty of fuel, that we spend an hour or two flying the plane around, letting both of the would-be pilots practice and get the feel of the plane (rather than try to land immediately). Whoever has the best feel for the plane is going to be the one who attempts the landing.
That said... land the plane at some airport where the approach doesn't take us over the city - if we don't make it, let's not take anyone else with us.
And any landing you can walk away from is a good one, right?
[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: jugofpropwash ]
Having read thru the replies, it seems to me that you're all thinking like professional pilots - not like the poor sucker who's just found himself sitting in the cockpit.
My perspective is that of the occasional airline passenger, who's taken one of those "free first flying lessons" and who used to fix airplane/chopper radios in the national guard many years ago.
Now - given the events of 9/11, I can see a scenario in which a passenger would end up flying the plane. If you have a situation in which there is a hijacking, and the passengers revolt - the terrorist pilot puts the plane on autopilot and goes back to help control the passengers and is subdued... and they've already killed the pilots...
So, I'm assuming that I'm the first person to get to the cockpit after "we" re-take the plane. First thing I do is look out the window and make sure the plane isn't pointed toward a mountain (or a skyscraper). Next, I look for an altimeter and artificial horizon (I'm assuming even modern airliners have them - even if only as backups?) Make sure the plane is flying relatively level - if so, there's plenty of time to do this.
Next, look for the radio. Given my background, I might or might not be able to find and activate it. If I can't, then I turn around and yell over my shoulder for some help from the other passengers - all you folks back there get on your cell phones and get me connected to a tower, an airline - someone who can tell me how to use the radio and more importantly fly the plane. (I find it interesting that for all you pilots talk about cockpit resource management, I've seen very little discussed here about getting other people to help you vs doing everything yourself.)
The first passenger I see who's not screaming in panic is going to get enlisted as a go-between (at least until someone explains to me how to work the intercom). I ask them to find anyone who's a pilot and/or has played with the MS flight simulator. Assuming several people come forward, my first choice would be someone who's both, second choice is a private pilot, third choice is a computer jockey. If there are no 'real' pilots and there are a number of gamers, then all else being equal I'm picking the 14 to 16 yr old male. Why? Because the 40 yr old executive knows he's going to die - the 15 yr old knows he can land the plane. Confidence is probably better than the wisdom of age in this case.
Given that there are several people available, I'm going to put one in the pilot's seat, one in the copilot's, and another in the jumpseat. Three sets of eyes looking for a control is better than just one set. If there aren't enough "qualified" folks available, I'll take one of those seats myself.
Once we make contact by cell phone, someone can explain how to work the radio. Assuming I'm still "in charge"
, I'm going to suggest to the tower that if we have plenty of fuel, that we spend an hour or two flying the plane around, letting both of the would-be pilots practice and get the feel of the plane (rather than try to land immediately). Whoever has the best feel for the plane is going to be the one who attempts the landing.That said... land the plane at some airport where the approach doesn't take us over the city - if we don't make it, let's not take anyone else with us.
And any landing you can walk away from is a good one, right?
[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: jugofpropwash ]
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United airlines have tested a large group of private pilots on their sims. Very few of them fail to get to the airport and the vast majority land without breaking anything. the rest land in survivable crashes.
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Thomas coupling
Please read the thread again or grow up, whichever is appropriate.
This thread was started by a PPL asking whether he would be able to LAND an airliner, not FLY one.
This is an interesting discussion for pilots, especially PPLs who have not been able to experience a sim ride and have little understanding of how an airliner is operated.
The subsequent conversation consisted of a whole spectrum of pilots, with differing levels of qualification and experience, discussing LANDING an airliner.
If you wish to engage in consipiracy theory, why don't you start a new thread in Jetblast which is there for that kind of discourse.
This is the Questions forum and this topic is entirely appropriate, wholseome and certainly in no way connected to the tragic events of 11 September; lest we forget, maybe 6K or more innocent people lost their lives that day.
Please read the thread again or grow up, whichever is appropriate.
This thread was started by a PPL asking whether he would be able to LAND an airliner, not FLY one.
This is an interesting discussion for pilots, especially PPLs who have not been able to experience a sim ride and have little understanding of how an airliner is operated.
The subsequent conversation consisted of a whole spectrum of pilots, with differing levels of qualification and experience, discussing LANDING an airliner.
If you wish to engage in consipiracy theory, why don't you start a new thread in Jetblast which is there for that kind of discourse.
This is the Questions forum and this topic is entirely appropriate, wholseome and certainly in no way connected to the tragic events of 11 September; lest we forget, maybe 6K or more innocent people lost their lives that day.
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I doubt very much, that when I was a PPL that I could land an airliner. I can not see it somehow guys. All of the sim sessions above have someone talking you through the landing. Even the course at United, they put you through a mini groundschool course, and you have more time in the sim than the average PPL!! Its a situation that has never arisen (except in the movies!) Hopefully it never will! Even for an airline pilot moving types the first look at a new flight deck is a bit confusing.
Eff Oh.
Eff Oh.