Aircraft/Landing Category
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Aircraft/Landing Category
Ladies and gentleman this is your First Officer speaking...
Im currently flying a B737NG (-900 to be exact) and have a question regarding category for landing.
My company SOP states that the -900 is Cat D so we will be using Cat D minima for landing.
Recently I flew to an airport that only had published minima for category A,B,& C aircraft so I questioned the captain about this and he if we are dispatched as a category C aircraft we can land there but we cant change category in flight.
From what I remember to determine which cateogry the A/C falls under its the stall speed at max landing weight in full landing config X 1.3 or in other words St1 X 1.3.
With this figure you will land in either A,B,C or D but you can also go up a category for landing but you cannot go down.
So can someone please explain this because I want to know if something is seriously wrong here.
Im currently flying a B737NG (-900 to be exact) and have a question regarding category for landing.
My company SOP states that the -900 is Cat D so we will be using Cat D minima for landing.
Recently I flew to an airport that only had published minima for category A,B,& C aircraft so I questioned the captain about this and he if we are dispatched as a category C aircraft we can land there but we cant change category in flight.
From what I remember to determine which cateogry the A/C falls under its the stall speed at max landing weight in full landing config X 1.3 or in other words St1 X 1.3.
With this figure you will land in either A,B,C or D but you can also go up a category for landing but you cannot go down.
So can someone please explain this because I want to know if something is seriously wrong here.
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Punk666,
To resolve this question it helps me to compartmentalize the answer. By that I mean to think on different levels at the same time.
For certification purposes, with the governmental regulatory having jurisdiction in issuing the legal authority to fly (for me here in the U.S.A. that’s the FAA) an aircraft will only fit into one category. And that is exactly as you stated:
There are certification requirements. The manufacturer says it is a – category based on their criteria. In this regime a specific type of aircraft will usually only fit into one category (for approach).
Your company SOP is an entirely different document than the certification guidelines the aircraft received its type certificate under. For dispatch purposes; if your company wants to go from a category C to a category D (you and I both know this will increase the minimums, requiring higher visibility) and the government regulatory agency signs off on this policy, then you are a category “D” for the given operation-according to your company.
Your airline is free to set it own policy, with the concurrence of the overseeing governmental regulatory body, that policy become your SOP and dispatch operational procedure.
Then there is the practical application. Let’s say your Boeing is certified and operated as a category “C”. But it is a bad day for you as you just took off at maximum weight, lost the engine and had to divert to your takeoff alternate that only has circling minimums published. And when you begin to configure you discover that the flaps are jammed and will not deploy. You are above maximum certified landing weight with a clean wing. What minimums apply, the aircraft was certified as a “C” category? Go to category “D”, based on your actual speed as you will not be able to slow down to the category “C” speeds.
That becomes the practical application on any given day based on system abnormalities.
What category does my jet fit into? That it depends on who is asking the question and what the circumstances are. By certification it is what Boeing/Airbus and the regulatory agency says it is. If my company, with the approval of the government oversight agency says something else, then that is what I will operate it under. If the jet is broke, and I can’t “fit” into the approach speed for the “agreed upon” category then I will use whatever category I need to.
Northbeach (likes flying the Boeing -900)
To resolve this question it helps me to compartmentalize the answer. By that I mean to think on different levels at the same time.
For certification purposes, with the governmental regulatory having jurisdiction in issuing the legal authority to fly (for me here in the U.S.A. that’s the FAA) an aircraft will only fit into one category. And that is exactly as you stated:
From what I remember to determine which cateogry the A/C falls under its the stall speed at max landing weight in full landing config X 1.3 or in other words St1 X 1.3.
There are certification requirements. The manufacturer says it is a – category based on their criteria. In this regime a specific type of aircraft will usually only fit into one category (for approach).
Your company SOP is an entirely different document than the certification guidelines the aircraft received its type certificate under. For dispatch purposes; if your company wants to go from a category C to a category D (you and I both know this will increase the minimums, requiring higher visibility) and the government regulatory agency signs off on this policy, then you are a category “D” for the given operation-according to your company.
Your airline is free to set it own policy, with the concurrence of the overseeing governmental regulatory body, that policy become your SOP and dispatch operational procedure.
Then there is the practical application. Let’s say your Boeing is certified and operated as a category “C”. But it is a bad day for you as you just took off at maximum weight, lost the engine and had to divert to your takeoff alternate that only has circling minimums published. And when you begin to configure you discover that the flaps are jammed and will not deploy. You are above maximum certified landing weight with a clean wing. What minimums apply, the aircraft was certified as a “C” category? Go to category “D”, based on your actual speed as you will not be able to slow down to the category “C” speeds.
That becomes the practical application on any given day based on system abnormalities.
What category does my jet fit into? That it depends on who is asking the question and what the circumstances are. By certification it is what Boeing/Airbus and the regulatory agency says it is. If my company, with the approval of the government oversight agency says something else, then that is what I will operate it under. If the jet is broke, and I can’t “fit” into the approach speed for the “agreed upon” category then I will use whatever category I need to.
Northbeach (likes flying the Boeing -900)
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Thank You
"Your company SOP is an entirely different document than the certification guidelines the aircraft received its type certificate under. For dispatch purposes; if your company wants to go from a category C to a category D (you and I both know this will increase the minimums, requiring higher visibility) and the government regulatory agency signs off on this policy, then you are a category “D” for the given operation-according to your company.
Your airline is free to set it own policy, with the concurrence of the overseeing governmental regulatory body, that policy become your SOP and dispatch operational procedure."
The statement above is the answer im looking for so thank you! But we never get told this at flight ops and I really do question some of the airports we fly to.
The aircraft we fly are always near full pax load and I personally dont trust the captains where Im working right now.
Your airline is free to set it own policy, with the concurrence of the overseeing governmental regulatory body, that policy become your SOP and dispatch operational procedure."
The statement above is the answer im looking for so thank you! But we never get told this at flight ops and I really do question some of the airports we fly to.
The aircraft we fly are always near full pax load and I personally dont trust the captains where Im working right now.
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Never ever allow the 4 bars in the left seat to lead you down the garden path. Of course deference, acknowledging experience and humility are necessary parts of being in the right seat of your -900. Keep thinking and asking questions; any Captain worth their position should welcome your courteous professional questions. Sadly there are exceptions, as I wrote the last sentence my mind flashed back to several incidents I endured as a First Officer – there are buffoons out there.
Several years ago I was in a U.S. Federal Courthouse watching the FAA and our Company go after two of our pilots. The pilots were stripped of their professional licenses and lost their careers. The presiding judge in the case asked a rhetorical question of the First Officer and then made a statement that I will never forget. The following is not an exact quote but the Judge’s words were something along the lines of: Do you have an ATP; did you attend ground school on this aircraft? If so, you are responsible for understanding your aircraft’s systems to such an extent that even if the Captain tells you something different, you should know enough to question his position. You are responsible up to and including getting out of your seat and going to the back of the aircraft to look for yourself (before the September 11th NY & Wash D.C. attacks). I was here and heard his comments first hand.
Keep up the good work and treat every month’s schedule like your warm up for your type rating (if you don’t already have one) and your command upgrade course. Keep thinking like a Captain, take a aircraft system a month and review the manual(s), force yourself to learn something “new” about the profession. Ok, enough cheerleading I’m done.
I think it would be a pleasure to fly with you.
Respectfully,
Northbeach
Several years ago I was in a U.S. Federal Courthouse watching the FAA and our Company go after two of our pilots. The pilots were stripped of their professional licenses and lost their careers. The presiding judge in the case asked a rhetorical question of the First Officer and then made a statement that I will never forget. The following is not an exact quote but the Judge’s words were something along the lines of: Do you have an ATP; did you attend ground school on this aircraft? If so, you are responsible for understanding your aircraft’s systems to such an extent that even if the Captain tells you something different, you should know enough to question his position. You are responsible up to and including getting out of your seat and going to the back of the aircraft to look for yourself (before the September 11th NY & Wash D.C. attacks). I was here and heard his comments first hand.
Keep up the good work and treat every month’s schedule like your warm up for your type rating (if you don’t already have one) and your command upgrade course. Keep thinking like a Captain, take a aircraft system a month and review the manual(s), force yourself to learn something “new” about the profession. Ok, enough cheerleading I’m done.
I think it would be a pleasure to fly with you.
Respectfully,
Northbeach
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Northbeach..
Thank you for your help and your story it has shed some light on the matter. I find learning about the B737 aircraft real hard work at times, I think it will take a few hundred may be thousand hours to even get how everything works and WHY.
Thanks again.
P.s I hold an FAA CPL and green card so we may fly together one day.
Thank you for your help and your story it has shed some light on the matter. I find learning about the B737 aircraft real hard work at times, I think it will take a few hundred may be thousand hours to even get how everything works and WHY.
Thanks again.
P.s I hold an FAA CPL and green card so we may fly together one day.
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PUNK666,
Northbeach is on the money. Think as a captain, and watch them like a hawk. Nobody is infalable. If they don't like you asking they need watching even closer.
If you think you will know all there is to know about any airplane in a hundred hours or even a thousand or so, think again. You will continue learning until you retire or even after, or you should not be in the job.
Got the T shirt etc. and still learning.
Speedbird 48.
Northbeach is on the money. Think as a captain, and watch them like a hawk. Nobody is infalable. If they don't like you asking they need watching even closer.
If you think you will know all there is to know about any airplane in a hundred hours or even a thousand or so, think again. You will continue learning until you retire or even after, or you should not be in the job.
Got the T shirt etc. and still learning.
Speedbird 48.
