EU OPS - Subpart Q - Positioning
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EU OPS - Subpart Q - Positioning
Hi,
I am a pilot working for a small airline in central Europe and I am not sure if the management obeys the flight and duty time limitations of EU OPS.
I hope that somebody can verify my concerns.
In our company we have two bases (lets call them A and B), My homebase is A, the B is 500 km away. For most of the month we work: a week in A, week in B, but recently after a day or two flying in A we need to go to B etc.
The only way to travel between bases is by train or car (journay takes more than 7 hours).
The Operator says that the time we take to reposition ourselves from base A to base B is not calculated into our flight duty period, or even into duty period. They quote OPS 1.1095 point 1.12, where it is said that travelling time (time from home to a designated reporting place) is excluded from positioning (and from duty as in OPS 1.1105 5a)
They actually treat the time spent on a train or in car as my rest.
For example, on Monday I finish my FDP at 10:00, (after 16 hrs of work with an overnight brake in a different location) and then I need to go quickly to base B by a train to start my flights on Tuesday morning.
As far as I understand the OPS, I need a rest of at least the 16 hrs befor starting a duty. Am I right?
So my questions are:
1. If I am required by the Operator to positon to a different base by means other than our aircraft, is it positioning (OPS 1.1105 5.) or travelling time (OPS 1.1105 12).?
2. If this repositioning/travelling time encompasses my rest period, may I fly the next morning?
3. What is the reporting place? OPS state a DESIGNATED reporting place. Can the operator change the reporting place (eg. 500 km away) without changing the homebase?
4. If I travel in uniform on a train (7 hr journay) and then rush to the airport to start my shift (13 hrs long) - do I brake the law? Is it after reporting or not?
Reading the OPS I thing that the lawmakers havn't taken into account that the crews may be positioned by means other than by their company's planes. The explanation of the travelling time is not very clear and can be misinterpreteted by the operators and NAA.
Best regards,
pp
I am a pilot working for a small airline in central Europe and I am not sure if the management obeys the flight and duty time limitations of EU OPS.
I hope that somebody can verify my concerns.
In our company we have two bases (lets call them A and B), My homebase is A, the B is 500 km away. For most of the month we work: a week in A, week in B, but recently after a day or two flying in A we need to go to B etc.
The only way to travel between bases is by train or car (journay takes more than 7 hours).
The Operator says that the time we take to reposition ourselves from base A to base B is not calculated into our flight duty period, or even into duty period. They quote OPS 1.1095 point 1.12, where it is said that travelling time (time from home to a designated reporting place) is excluded from positioning (and from duty as in OPS 1.1105 5a)
They actually treat the time spent on a train or in car as my rest.
For example, on Monday I finish my FDP at 10:00, (after 16 hrs of work with an overnight brake in a different location) and then I need to go quickly to base B by a train to start my flights on Tuesday morning.
As far as I understand the OPS, I need a rest of at least the 16 hrs befor starting a duty. Am I right?
So my questions are:
1. If I am required by the Operator to positon to a different base by means other than our aircraft, is it positioning (OPS 1.1105 5.) or travelling time (OPS 1.1105 12).?
2. If this repositioning/travelling time encompasses my rest period, may I fly the next morning?
3. What is the reporting place? OPS state a DESIGNATED reporting place. Can the operator change the reporting place (eg. 500 km away) without changing the homebase?
4. If I travel in uniform on a train (7 hr journay) and then rush to the airport to start my shift (13 hrs long) - do I brake the law? Is it after reporting or not?
Reading the OPS I thing that the lawmakers havn't taken into account that the crews may be positioned by means other than by their company's planes. The explanation of the travelling time is not very clear and can be misinterpreteted by the operators and NAA.
Best regards,
pp
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Basically it is very simple.
If you have a minimum required rest for your previously completed duty the travelling to another reporting point is duty time.
If after this travelling you are not provided with another minimum rest period as per the travelling time, you need to count the travelling time as flight duty time but not as a sector.
If travelling after a duty takes place within less than the minimum required rest the travelling time is neither duty nor flight duty nor rest.
In this case you have to have rest period after the travelling time equivalent to the time spent from beginning of last flight duty period until end of travel time.
Somewhere in the FTL in your OPS Manual it says: Any time spent on company behest is cannot be considered as rest period.
The sentence may vary, the idea is the same.
You may, however, have to find a lot of dynamite to break the granite wall inside the brain of the scheduling officer, chief pilot or even DFO....
Good luck
If you have a minimum required rest for your previously completed duty the travelling to another reporting point is duty time.
If after this travelling you are not provided with another minimum rest period as per the travelling time, you need to count the travelling time as flight duty time but not as a sector.
If travelling after a duty takes place within less than the minimum required rest the travelling time is neither duty nor flight duty nor rest.
In this case you have to have rest period after the travelling time equivalent to the time spent from beginning of last flight duty period until end of travel time.
Somewhere in the FTL in your OPS Manual it says: Any time spent on company behest is cannot be considered as rest period.
The sentence may vary, the idea is the same.
You may, however, have to find a lot of dynamite to break the granite wall inside the brain of the scheduling officer, chief pilot or even DFO....
Good luck
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panpilot - I am a little confused by your post.
Some questions:
You quote a 16 hour 'duty' with an 'overnight break' - what exactly was it? On chocks, off chocks?
What is the date of EU-OPS Part Q that you are looking at? Can you copy here your EU-OPS references please? That is:
OPS 1.1095 point 1.12,
and
The whole of OPS 1.1105 5
and
OPS 1.1105 12
please?
Some questions:
You quote a 16 hour 'duty' with an 'overnight break' - what exactly was it? On chocks, off chocks?
What is the date of EU-OPS Part Q that you are looking at? Can you copy here your EU-OPS references please? That is:
OPS 1.1095 point 1.12,
and
The whole of OPS 1.1105 5
and
OPS 1.1105 12
please?
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pan pilot
To answer your questions
1. The time taken to reposition from base A to B should be calculated into your flight duty period if pre flight, and into the duty time weekly etc.
Travelling time is the time taken from your home to reporting place i.e. Base A. Because of the time it takes to get to Base B you cannot be "dual based".
As BOAC states you might need to go into a little more detail on your 16 hr over night duty with a break i.e. how much rest did you get away from Base A, was it the minimum of 11?.
Regardless of that if you completed the duty mentioned then travelled by train to Base B all the hours would be counted in your duty totals. If you had completed 16hrs duty you would then add the 7 hrs paxing making 23 hours rest required (does sub part Q ask for a local night after 18hrs duty?)
Point 2 is in theory you could fly but after 23hr rest not 16.
Point 3 the reporting place is your standard HOME Base A. You cannot in my view change the reporting place without allowing additional duty time i.e. the 7 hrs
Point 4 If you travel by train pre flight of 13hrs then that's a complete and utter no-no.
The lawmakers are aware that crews may be positioned by means other than Company planes. Have you tried contacting your NAA?. If not send me a mail and i'll point you in the direction of someone in officialdom that can help you.
I have to say I wouldn't want to get on one of your aircraft if i knew this was going on.
To answer your questions
1. The time taken to reposition from base A to B should be calculated into your flight duty period if pre flight, and into the duty time weekly etc.
Travelling time is the time taken from your home to reporting place i.e. Base A. Because of the time it takes to get to Base B you cannot be "dual based".
As BOAC states you might need to go into a little more detail on your 16 hr over night duty with a break i.e. how much rest did you get away from Base A, was it the minimum of 11?.
Regardless of that if you completed the duty mentioned then travelled by train to Base B all the hours would be counted in your duty totals. If you had completed 16hrs duty you would then add the 7 hrs paxing making 23 hours rest required (does sub part Q ask for a local night after 18hrs duty?)
Point 2 is in theory you could fly but after 23hr rest not 16.
Point 3 the reporting place is your standard HOME Base A. You cannot in my view change the reporting place without allowing additional duty time i.e. the 7 hrs
Point 4 If you travel by train pre flight of 13hrs then that's a complete and utter no-no.
The lawmakers are aware that crews may be positioned by means other than Company planes. Have you tried contacting your NAA?. If not send me a mail and i'll point you in the direction of someone in officialdom that can help you.
I have to say I wouldn't want to get on one of your aircraft if i knew this was going on.
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I guess he means a split duty (OPS 1.1105 6) period for 16 hours, ie flight duty, some kind of rest period (break, OPS 1.1095 1.3) which is shorter than a full rest time period followed by another duty period. That is very much possible within the regulations of Subpart Q. In my company we are limited to a total duty period of 18 hours that way and max 2 landings after the break if the crew is not enlarged.
EU OPS may be found here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...01:0238:EN:PDF
EU OPS may be found here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...01:0238:EN:PDF
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In our company, pilots may work up to 18 hrs provided they have a brake longer than 6 hrs. It means, I can start my FDP at 1900, after two sectors rest between 21 hrs and 0500 and then work from 0545 till 1200 having two more sectors to fly.
The regulations I quouted were OPS 1. You can read all from page 223 (subpart Q).
The regulations I quouted were OPS 1. You can read all from page 223 (subpart Q).
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Denti - I have that one - the reason for asking for 'copy' is that I cannot see the references quoted, ie OPS 1.1095 1.12 clearly refers to travelling time in terms of home or place of rest, not from one base to another, therefore all time spent going from A to B at company request is 'Duty' iaw 1105 5.1 and thus requires appropriate 'rest' which must be free of any duty. My understanding of 'designated place of duty' means that the company could (subject to any contractual conditions) notify you that your base is now 'B'. Then getting from home (at A?) to B no longer is 'duty'.
I also do not see OPS 1.1105 12 I assume he/she means 1095.12.
I also do not see OPS 1.1105 12 I assume he/she means 1095.12.
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1. The time taken to reposition from base A to B should be calculated into your flight duty period if pre flight, and into the duty time weekly etc.
Travelling time is the time taken from your home to reporting place i.e. Base A. Because of the time it takes to get to Base B you cannot be "dual based".
Yes, this is what I thought, but the definintion of 'travelling time' in OPS is very ambiguous. A designated reporting place is different if the company provides me with a hotel, then the time spent on travelling between the hotel and the airport is the travelling time and is not calculated into a duty period. What with travelling to the hotel? How much brake do I have to have in the hotel?
I can see your point and I clearly agree with it, but I wish to have more details, maybe your OM?
As BOAC states you might need to go into a little more detail on your 16 hr over night duty with a break i.e. how much rest did you get away from Base A, was it the minimum of 11?.
If I do not have the required rest time (in this case 10 hrs), but 8 for example, the split duty time regulations allow me to fly. Maximum is 18 hrs in my company.
Regardless of that if you completed the duty mentioned then travelled by train to Base B all the hours would be counted in your duty totals. If you had completed 16hrs duty you would then add the 7 hrs paxing making 23 hours rest required (does sub part Q ask for a local night after 18hrs duty?)
I havn't found any info about local night. However this point is very interesting. But could you give me a prove on that? Any particular law paragraphs?
Point 2 is in theory you could fly but after 23hr rest not 16.
Point 3 the reporting place is your standard HOME Base A. You cannot in my view change the reporting place without allowing additional duty time i.e. the 7 hrs
You're right, but what in case I flew from my base A to B, leave the plane there and go to a hotel... In this case, they can change my base - an it is justified. In the OPS and my OM A I couldn't find any further explanation.
Point 4 If you travel by train pre flight of 13hrs then that's a complete and utter no-no
Ok, but how can I explain it to my operator?.
The lawmakers are aware that crews may be positioned by means other than Company planes. Have you tried contacting your NAA?. If not send me a mail and i'll point you in the direction of someone in officialdom that can help you.
Thanks a lot, I wouldnt do it officially until I am completly sure they are wrong. i do not want to lose my job, and our NAA closely cooperates with our company.
I have to say I wouldn't want to get on one of your aircraft if i knew this was going on.
I am also quite concerned about it. Still looking for a nice and fair job. Any recommendations? ;-)
Travelling time is the time taken from your home to reporting place i.e. Base A. Because of the time it takes to get to Base B you cannot be "dual based".
Yes, this is what I thought, but the definintion of 'travelling time' in OPS is very ambiguous. A designated reporting place is different if the company provides me with a hotel, then the time spent on travelling between the hotel and the airport is the travelling time and is not calculated into a duty period. What with travelling to the hotel? How much brake do I have to have in the hotel?
I can see your point and I clearly agree with it, but I wish to have more details, maybe your OM?
As BOAC states you might need to go into a little more detail on your 16 hr over night duty with a break i.e. how much rest did you get away from Base A, was it the minimum of 11?.
If I do not have the required rest time (in this case 10 hrs), but 8 for example, the split duty time regulations allow me to fly. Maximum is 18 hrs in my company.
Regardless of that if you completed the duty mentioned then travelled by train to Base B all the hours would be counted in your duty totals. If you had completed 16hrs duty you would then add the 7 hrs paxing making 23 hours rest required (does sub part Q ask for a local night after 18hrs duty?)
I havn't found any info about local night. However this point is very interesting. But could you give me a prove on that? Any particular law paragraphs?
Point 2 is in theory you could fly but after 23hr rest not 16.
Point 3 the reporting place is your standard HOME Base A. You cannot in my view change the reporting place without allowing additional duty time i.e. the 7 hrs
You're right, but what in case I flew from my base A to B, leave the plane there and go to a hotel... In this case, they can change my base - an it is justified. In the OPS and my OM A I couldn't find any further explanation.
Point 4 If you travel by train pre flight of 13hrs then that's a complete and utter no-no
Ok, but how can I explain it to my operator?.
The lawmakers are aware that crews may be positioned by means other than Company planes. Have you tried contacting your NAA?. If not send me a mail and i'll point you in the direction of someone in officialdom that can help you.
Thanks a lot, I wouldnt do it officially until I am completly sure they are wrong. i do not want to lose my job, and our NAA closely cooperates with our company.
I have to say I wouldn't want to get on one of your aircraft if i knew this was going on.
I am also quite concerned about it. Still looking for a nice and fair job. Any recommendations? ;-)
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Actually, i do agree there, travelling time is time spent from accomodation to airport or the other way round, certainly not time spend travelling from one base to another. In fact Mr. AfP summed it up quite nicely.
Just added the split duty thing, in germany it is even possible with breaks as short as 3 hours (from checkout of first part until report time for second part) which can make for a very tiring day indeed.
Just added the split duty thing, in germany it is even possible with breaks as short as 3 hours (from checkout of first part until report time for second part) which can make for a very tiring day indeed.
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From where I see it, this is fairly clear (as clear as anything ever is
).
What with travelling to the hotel? How much brake do I have to have in the hotel?
Let's start with 1090 3.1. Assuming your home base remains A? If so, you have a new 'designated reporting point', B. You require some form of accommodation (the max travelling time to report USED to be specified). You require the necessary rest between off-duty at the end of the journey from A to report at B. Since you are away from base, it is min 10 hours (NB min 8 hrs sleep time).
Local night
I have found no such requirement in EU-OPS
You fly from A to B.
UNLESS there has been a notified change in 'home base', you are 'away from base' and min rest requirements apply as in first para. Your 'home base' will almost certainly not change. Your 'designated reporting point' (DRP) will - to B. The company cannot provide you with a 'local place of rest' too far away eg 13 hrs by train!
13 hrs in a train
Back to 'home base'. If you are being 'positioned' - same rules - company must ensure you are at DRP having had min rest (at least 13 hrs, except this can be 'reduced' to 10/8). If YOU choose to make your own way to B, company are technically absolved from this - as long as they have given you enough 'time off'.
Over to others then - don't you love these regs?
Talk about skinning cats.
).What with travelling to the hotel? How much brake do I have to have in the hotel?
Let's start with 1090 3.1. Assuming your home base remains A? If so, you have a new 'designated reporting point', B. You require some form of accommodation (the max travelling time to report USED to be specified). You require the necessary rest between off-duty at the end of the journey from A to report at B. Since you are away from base, it is min 10 hours (NB min 8 hrs sleep time).
Local night
I have found no such requirement in EU-OPS
You fly from A to B.
UNLESS there has been a notified change in 'home base', you are 'away from base' and min rest requirements apply as in first para. Your 'home base' will almost certainly not change. Your 'designated reporting point' (DRP) will - to B. The company cannot provide you with a 'local place of rest' too far away eg 13 hrs by train!
13 hrs in a train
Back to 'home base'. If you are being 'positioned' - same rules - company must ensure you are at DRP having had min rest (at least 13 hrs, except this can be 'reduced' to 10/8). If YOU choose to make your own way to B, company are technically absolved from this - as long as they have given you enough 'time off'.
Over to others then - don't you love these regs?
Talk about skinning cats.
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BOAC
Yes sorry the local night is a UK CAP371 thing.
Panpilot
The whole arguement seems to be around the legality of you being "dual" based. You could try contacting ECA the euro cockpit Union i'm sure they would clarify the rules for peace of mind. Of course if they say it is illegal then this put's you in a difficult position - maybe a letter to the Chief Pilot and copy in the Safety manager (if you have one..) unsigned.... Good Luck
Yes sorry the local night is a UK CAP371 thing.
Panpilot
The whole arguement seems to be around the legality of you being "dual" based. You could try contacting ECA the euro cockpit Union i'm sure they would clarify the rules for peace of mind. Of course if they say it is illegal then this put's you in a difficult position - maybe a letter to the Chief Pilot and copy in the Safety manager (if you have one..) unsigned.... Good Luck
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Mr A from P
I thought Sub Part Q removed the option for dual basing, or was that little nugget dropped from the final?
Even if it is allowed, I can't see that two airports 500km apart could be considered 'dual' bases.
I thought Sub Part Q removed the option for dual basing, or was that little nugget dropped from the final?
Even if it is allowed, I can't see that two airports 500km apart could be considered 'dual' bases.
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Mr A and Big T - mention of 371 - ah! fond memories.................
One of the many things that concerns me about JAR/EUOps is that they do not, as far as I can see, cover 'max' travelling time from home or rest location to base. If I recall correctly I think 'dual basing' under 371 was
a) voluntary/contractual?
b) had to be within a ?90 min? travelling time to both?
Certainly I agree 500km is taking the ****. I'd be interested to see a duty pattern for pp's 'dual base' episodes.
One of the many things that concerns me about JAR/EUOps is that they do not, as far as I can see, cover 'max' travelling time from home or rest location to base. If I recall correctly I think 'dual basing' under 371 was
a) voluntary/contractual?
b) had to be within a ?90 min? travelling time to both?
Certainly I agree 500km is taking the ****. I'd be interested to see a duty pattern for pp's 'dual base' episodes.
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EU-OPS is often quite vague or does not regulate stuff at all. Therefore some additional local regulation is usually needed. Dual basing is one of those things. However traveling time can be part of your rest time, but then it must be assured that a core sleep time of 8 hours plus time for physiological needs is available, time for physiological needs is one hour before and one hour after the sleep period. Which makes up the usual minimum rest time of 10 hours out of base and 12 hours at base including two hours traveling time from and to base.
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The location nominated by the operator to the crew member from where the crew member normally starts and ends a duty period or a series of duty periods and where, under normal conditions, the operator is not responsible for the accommodation of the crew member concerned.
My bold:
As with many things, it is what it does not say that is the problem! So - can they swap your home base or not? What do you read? I guess pp's company think they can.
My bold:
As with many things, it is what it does not say that is the problem! So - can they swap your home base or not? What do you read? I guess pp's company think they can.
