Pax Comment - Help Please from Boeing Drivers
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Pax Comment - Help Please from Boeing Drivers
Hi everyone,
I am a B737-800 low hours driver. Finished my line training end of last year in and now have about 350 hrs on type. Recently I was transferred to a new base. This particular airport has a major slope and is quite short at 1800mtrs. Since I've moved to this airport, my landings aint the best, theyve been firm. But in saying that, I've had no problems at all in any of my training or previous flights or landings.
I was coming in tonight (my leg) at night, crosswind 10-15kts or so. Full load (pretty much) onto the runway with upslope. Flap 40 landing, I landed a little long, and because of this i cut the power a bit early... and then I had a firm arrival! Used Autobrake Max then with max manual. Slowed to taxi speed around 900mtrs to go or a little less.
That was it, fleet pretty crap that it was ****e, but got over it fairly quickly. Then as the pax where disembarking one woman stook her head in the flighdeck door and said that I should be ashamed of my landing, how dare I dont apologise and I qoate "We dropped out of the sky" according to this lady. She continued to abuse me in front of other pax and the crew saying how much she paid for her tickets etc etc. I felt like a piece of crap, apologised and said nothing else.
To be honest chaps an chapesses... I feel very
low. I mean, do people really think we do it on purpose? Any advice? Personally I am just going to try forget about it, but I am sitting here, livid. Thinking the ... how dare she.
Regards,
MRBH (Stressed)
I am a B737-800 low hours driver. Finished my line training end of last year in and now have about 350 hrs on type. Recently I was transferred to a new base. This particular airport has a major slope and is quite short at 1800mtrs. Since I've moved to this airport, my landings aint the best, theyve been firm. But in saying that, I've had no problems at all in any of my training or previous flights or landings.
I was coming in tonight (my leg) at night, crosswind 10-15kts or so. Full load (pretty much) onto the runway with upslope. Flap 40 landing, I landed a little long, and because of this i cut the power a bit early... and then I had a firm arrival! Used Autobrake Max then with max manual. Slowed to taxi speed around 900mtrs to go or a little less.
That was it, fleet pretty crap that it was ****e, but got over it fairly quickly. Then as the pax where disembarking one woman stook her head in the flighdeck door and said that I should be ashamed of my landing, how dare I dont apologise and I qoate "We dropped out of the sky" according to this lady. She continued to abuse me in front of other pax and the crew saying how much she paid for her tickets etc etc. I felt like a piece of crap, apologised and said nothing else.
To be honest chaps an chapesses... I feel very
low. I mean, do people really think we do it on purpose? Any advice? Personally I am just going to try forget about it, but I am sitting here, livid. Thinking the ... how dare she.Regards,
MRBH (Stressed)
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I had something similar to that when I had the same experience levels. My landings just went a little to pot for a wee while.
Anyway on this particular day it was relatively blustery but nothing scary but we were all shook around a bit. Then I disengaged the autopilot but was just that little bit behind the aircraft and spanked it in. Didn't really want to open the flight deck door afterwards because I knew people's fillings would have been rattled. Then one of the cabin crew comes in the f/d and tells me one of the pax is moaning about how he'd been a passanger for donkeys years and felt that was the most dangerous landing he'd ever experienced etc etc etc.
Anyways he got off and even the Pax behind him mouthed 'idiot' behind his back as they got off. I spoke to my captain about it and he said if he thought it was as bad as that he'd have put it in the tech log for a hard landing check but he didn't feel it warranted that. I spoke to our flight safety man it hadn't triggered any warnings so no problems. End of. I don't know what airline you fly for but in mine if you want to see anything you've done that you thought was dodgy then just email the flight safety man and you'll have the fdm trace within a day. One of the joys of working in an industry with a no blame culture.
It happens to everyone. At the end of the day they're passangers and dont have a clue what's really happening up front. Now if I make a hard landing I just say that mr Boeing wants a positive contact so who am I to argue with what mr Boeing wants.
Anyway on this particular day it was relatively blustery but nothing scary but we were all shook around a bit. Then I disengaged the autopilot but was just that little bit behind the aircraft and spanked it in. Didn't really want to open the flight deck door afterwards because I knew people's fillings would have been rattled. Then one of the cabin crew comes in the f/d and tells me one of the pax is moaning about how he'd been a passanger for donkeys years and felt that was the most dangerous landing he'd ever experienced etc etc etc.
Anyways he got off and even the Pax behind him mouthed 'idiot' behind his back as they got off. I spoke to my captain about it and he said if he thought it was as bad as that he'd have put it in the tech log for a hard landing check but he didn't feel it warranted that. I spoke to our flight safety man it hadn't triggered any warnings so no problems. End of. I don't know what airline you fly for but in mine if you want to see anything you've done that you thought was dodgy then just email the flight safety man and you'll have the fdm trace within a day. One of the joys of working in an industry with a no blame culture.
It happens to everyone. At the end of the day they're passangers and dont have a clue what's really happening up front. Now if I make a hard landing I just say that mr Boeing wants a positive contact so who am I to argue with what mr Boeing wants.
Last edited by cortilla; 23rd Jan 2010 at 01:33. Reason: spelling
Advice given to me by my er, counsellor many years ago when I had described my bad day during a post coital cigarette/chat.
She said....
"'Em! 'Em All!!
She said....
"
'Em! 'Em All!!
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Oh, just do what I have done for the last 30 years.
You keep a very straight face and explain that there were A family of ducklings or a baby deer or a fox and her baby cub on the runway, that you just managed to miss, but it did result in a slightly firmer touchdown than you planned for!
Within seconds you will have been transformed from villain to hero! Works just as well with passengers and cabin crew, and the sun still comes up in the morning!
You keep a very straight face and explain that there were A family of ducklings or a baby deer or a fox and her baby cub on the runway, that you just managed to miss, but it did result in a slightly firmer touchdown than you planned for!
Within seconds you will have been transformed from villain to hero! Works just as well with passengers and cabin crew, and the sun still comes up in the morning!
"Do you remember what happened to the airliner that hit the birds in New York and lost all power? Would you have prefer I hit birds or land safely even if it would be a bit harder than normal but still within the aircraft limits?"
In the 1980s after a very long day landing at BHX on RW 33 with an on limit crosswind and a wet night, I thought I'd done quite a fine job at planting the machine safely on the ground at the right point and speed etc.
As I came out of the flight deck a lady who was disembarking said "Nice flight but I didn't think much of the landing". It was like being punched in the stomach and before I could say anything the No. 1 cabin crew said "Yes madam but do you think you could have done any better?" No more was said!
As I came out of the flight deck a lady who was disembarking said "Nice flight but I didn't think much of the landing". It was like being punched in the stomach and before I could say anything the No. 1 cabin crew said "Yes madam but do you think you could have done any better?" No more was said!
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Does the B737-800 have auto height call outs, say, 50', 30' 20' 10' etc?
When I did a conversion to a Boeing 747-400 the instructor said when the chips are down, crap weather, night etc. try and remember at 50' stop whatever you are doing, 30' retard the throttles, 10' gentle flare, I tried it and it worked, not perfect but acceptable, provided the ROD is reasonable.
With time on the aircraft you will develop a good technique so don't stress yourself, you are probably thinking too much about the runway length and slope. Aim for a stabilised approach to the numbers and don't forget the flare!
When I did a conversion to a Boeing 747-400 the instructor said when the chips are down, crap weather, night etc. try and remember at 50' stop whatever you are doing, 30' retard the throttles, 10' gentle flare, I tried it and it worked, not perfect but acceptable, provided the ROD is reasonable.
With time on the aircraft you will develop a good technique so don't stress yourself, you are probably thinking too much about the runway length and slope. Aim for a stabilised approach to the numbers and don't forget the flare!
There are two things you can do, 1/ let it get to you and as a result lose confidence which may result in slowing your rate of improvement.
2/ Think "glad I've got that shocker out of the way.....time to nail some landings on speed, on target."
That could well be true, if the book says you will fit in with all factors etc then you will as long as you put it on the spot, pretend its 3000meters long and fly the correct speed on the correct path and bobs your uncle.
At the end of the day I think most jet drivers have done a shocker or two in their time. I know I have. It's just unfortunate for you that the pax mouthed off. Forget about him, he probably thinks he has lots of responsibility in his job at a bank or selling insurance.
2/ Think "glad I've got that shocker out of the way.....time to nail some landings on speed, on target."
you are probably thinking too much about the runway length and slope. Aim for a stabilised approach to the numbers
At the end of the day I think most jet drivers have done a shocker or two in their time. I know I have. It's just unfortunate for you that the pax mouthed off. Forget about him, he probably thinks he has lots of responsibility in his job at a bank or selling insurance.
PS, for a lot of people (I am one) it took 1000hrs or so to feel like I really got the hang of the 73, so don't expect to nail it over-night.
Also, I probably wouldn't go retarding the thrust levers at 30ft as a matter of course, I'm sure Parrabellum didn't mean you to transfer 747 techniques onto the 73 but I just thought I'd mention it in case you took it literally and thumped it on again next flight!
Also, I probably wouldn't go retarding the thrust levers at 30ft as a matter of course, I'm sure Parrabellum didn't mean you to transfer 747 techniques onto the 73 but I just thought I'd mention it in case you took it literally and thumped it on again next flight!
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Thanks guys,
Some good advice. As one comment said it was like being punched in the stomach by this pax. Problem was my cabin crew where not as supportive as yours... and laughed when it was said!
With regard to the 74 driver, thanks its similar to the 73, but knowing what to do and how to actually land safely isnt the problem. I know how to fly the plane and land it safely. Its just a bit of mental block I now have at this particular runway. Silly I know..
Anyway, Ive slept on it and still feel like crap. Just going to try my best next week when I am back to work to nail them!!!
Some good advice. As one comment said it was like being punched in the stomach by this pax. Problem was my cabin crew where not as supportive as yours... and laughed when it was said!
With regard to the 74 driver, thanks its similar to the 73, but knowing what to do and how to actually land safely isnt the problem. I know how to fly the plane and land it safely. Its just a bit of mental block I now have at this particular runway. Silly I know..
Anyway, Ive slept on it and still feel like crap. Just going to try my best next week when I am back to work to nail them!!!
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I know how you feel, mate.
As a young FO (youngest in my company) I was temporarily placed on another base for a week last summer, scheduled with a captain I hadn't met before. When we met, and talked a while, I pulled the self-ironic joke that I had a practice week (you know, like you have when you're like 13 and in school and you get to go do something daft for a week).
He offered me to fly the first leg, which was a short hop (20 minutes or so), to a relatively short runway. We arrived in beautiful VMC day conditions, although with a fresh breeze and quite a bit of turbulence around the airport. Some difficult wind conditions combined with a piss poor landing (worse than usual!), I bounced it, saved it and didn't say much. Oh well. Every once in a while you screw it up, just like you every once in a while grease it without conscious thought. The tower announced "landing time 51 and 52". After landing the skipper asked if I wanted to talk about it...? Well, I told him what I thought happened (wind and this and that height, power correction, speed etc, you know the drill), but he now took on the instructor role and his faith in me obviously was near zero. What was to that date (and still is) my worst landing in that aircraft was now his sole reference to my flying ability.
Needless to say the rest of the period I had quite a bit of pressure on me to convince him I could actually land the thing. And when you feel you absolutely positively have to grease it, and you can feel the tension in the cockpit, him being ready to take over in a split second... I doesn't help with lowering your shoulders! OTOH I can understand his reaction, but it's a bad feeling to have.
Oh well. I guess it's part of the job to deal with those emotions. And it's important to know that everyone, despite of effort and skill, will every once in a while screw it up, landings too. IMHO a good pilot will only do it less frequently!
As a young FO (youngest in my company) I was temporarily placed on another base for a week last summer, scheduled with a captain I hadn't met before. When we met, and talked a while, I pulled the self-ironic joke that I had a practice week (you know, like you have when you're like 13 and in school and you get to go do something daft for a week).
He offered me to fly the first leg, which was a short hop (20 minutes or so), to a relatively short runway. We arrived in beautiful VMC day conditions, although with a fresh breeze and quite a bit of turbulence around the airport. Some difficult wind conditions combined with a piss poor landing (worse than usual!), I bounced it, saved it and didn't say much. Oh well. Every once in a while you screw it up, just like you every once in a while grease it without conscious thought. The tower announced "landing time 51 and 52". After landing the skipper asked if I wanted to talk about it...? Well, I told him what I thought happened (wind and this and that height, power correction, speed etc, you know the drill), but he now took on the instructor role and his faith in me obviously was near zero. What was to that date (and still is) my worst landing in that aircraft was now his sole reference to my flying ability.
Needless to say the rest of the period I had quite a bit of pressure on me to convince him I could actually land the thing. And when you feel you absolutely positively have to grease it, and you can feel the tension in the cockpit, him being ready to take over in a split second... I doesn't help with lowering your shoulders! OTOH I can understand his reaction, but it's a bad feeling to have.
Oh well. I guess it's part of the job to deal with those emotions. And it's important to know that everyone, despite of effort and skill, will every once in a while screw it up, landings too. IMHO a good pilot will only do it less frequently!
which was a short hop (20 minutes or so), to a relatively short runway. We arrived in beautiful VMC day conditions, although with a fresh breeze and quite a bit of turbulence around the airport.
Just a personal thing but, almost exclusively, if I haven't flown with the FO before I usually do the first sector myself. It takes a little time to get to know people and assess where they are at and hopefully they will learn a bit about my own style and cadence, notwithstanding SOPs.
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Forgive me in advance for speaking the obvious , but your preoccupation with your inability to land an aircraft properly speaks volumes about your overall lack of experience , and your job has everything to do with your employer allowing you to gain that experience at the expense of numerous hard landings. To rephrase an old saying , "they get what you pay for". Don`t use the Boeing phrase firm landing to justify your inexperience. I`d be rather unhappy also , knowing as a passenger your overall experience operating any aircraft let alone a jet with fare paying passengers amounted to so little. What pray tell would happen someday your babysitter in the LH seat had an incapacitation event ? What a sorry state this industry is in.
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Don't sweat the small stuff. I made rather firm (
) landings in 727s after I had over 7,000 hours in them. It's going to happen. As long as it was a safe landing that is all that counts.
With time in type you will improve, at least you should.
As for passenger comments, just shrug them off. Or you could reply; "I guess everything you do is perfect."
Anyway, don't worry about it.
) landings in 727s after I had over 7,000 hours in them. It's going to happen. As long as it was a safe landing that is all that counts.With time in type you will improve, at least you should.
As for passenger comments, just shrug them off. Or you could reply; "I guess everything you do is perfect."
Anyway, don't worry about it.
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6000PIC has a point.
There is absolutely no question that the passenger had no right to speak to you in that manner. It is also highly likely that she (and most other passengers) think a smooth landing is a good one, a firm landing is a bad one. Everyone here knows the issues are more complex than that.
And yet...
you have admitted, on a public forum, that you do not have confidence in your ability to land the passenger aircraft on which you are type-rated. That does not fill one with confidence. Should you not be addressing the matter with your training department? Or at the least the captain of that flight?
There is absolutely no question that the passenger had no right to speak to you in that manner. It is also highly likely that she (and most other passengers) think a smooth landing is a good one, a firm landing is a bad one. Everyone here knows the issues are more complex than that.
And yet...
you have admitted, on a public forum, that you do not have confidence in your ability to land the passenger aircraft on which you are type-rated. That does not fill one with confidence. Should you not be addressing the matter with your training department? Or at the least the captain of that flight?
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Pah! Lowered the elevation of a few runway touchdown zones myself. Confidence comes with experience and so does the ability to shrug this stuff off. Also the truth is, a soft landing is a bonus. it is not included in the ticket price. Any unwarranted criticism by passengers in this fashion shouldn't be met with an apology. A short reply of "goodbye madam" and no more works wonders.
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You should not have apologised, she should not have been allowed to poke her nose through the flight deck door (keep it shut until they are all off). I hope your captain was supportive.
Ignore that as well.
No, he/she did not admit that.
I`d be rather unhappy also , knowing as a passenger your overall experience operating any aircraft let alone a jet with fare paying passengers amounted to so little. What pray tell would happen someday your babysitter in the LH seat had an incapacitation event ? What a sorry state this industry is in.
you have admitted, on a public forum, that you do not have confidence in your ability to land the passenger aircraft on which you are type-rated.
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Just tell them that the new tyres are a bit firm for the first couple of landings. Draw them slightly to one side while explaining this in lowered tones.They will feel special & leave happy.