Fully automated flight
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...or the the complete and utter rubbish that Honeywell have put into Embraers. If I made that stuff I'd make sure that my name wasn't on it. And if Honeywell avionics do ever make it into pilotless aircraft we'll all have to live like troglodytes. Unless of course, these planes are built by Embraer when we'll be perfectly safe. Because they won't actually get airborne.
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Because they won't actually get airborne.
What exactly is the problem, as....in the past, Honeywell turned out some mighty fine avionics.
Usually....
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Here's a sample 411A http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/204...-139-a-48.html
YouTube - Boeing 737 Gear Up Landing
YouTube - Chaka Khan- Through the fire. I have a musical mind
I'm not sure I'll ever be aboard with that idea
Of course I'm inextricably biased
YouTube - Chaka Khan- Through the fire. I have a musical mind
I'm not sure I'll ever be aboard with that idea
Of course I'm inextricably biased
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 11th Jan 2010 at 21:40.
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I'm not a fan!
What exactly is the problem, as....in the past, Honeywell turned out some mighty fine avionics.
Honeywell have lost the plot on this thing and instead of glistening on the top of a pile of excrement, their products merge into the background. Embraer can and should have done better.
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From Aviation International News today
SAIBs Address Honeywell FMS Software Glitch
The FAA late last week issued special airworthiness information bulletins NM-10-12 and NM-10-13 to address a glitch in software for Honeywell NZ-2000 and FMZ-2000/IC-615/IC-800/IC-1080 Primus Epic flight management systems. Affected units are installed on a wide range of business jets manufactured by Cessna, Bombardier, Dassault Falcon, Gulfstream, Hawker Beechcraft and Embraer, as well as several regional jets and airliners. The problem was discovered during an Rnav approach on a Bombardier Challenger programmed with NZ-2000 FMS software version 5.2. According to the FAA, the airplane was flying the WAATS Three Arrival STAR into Salt Lake City International Airport. (The FAA incorrectly identifies the arrival as “WATTS” in SAIB NM-10-12.) “A different runway was selected in the FMS during the STAR, and resulted in the FMS navigating the airplane toward the initial STAR waypoint instead of the next sequential STAR waypoint,” the FAA said. As a result of this incident, Honeywell issued a service information letter on October 15, to provide operators with guidelines for flight plan modifications made on the “arrival” page on the FMS, including a destination runway change. The FAA said this airworthiness concern is not an unsafe condition that would warrant issuance of an Airworthiness Directive.
SAIBs Address Honeywell FMS Software Glitch
The FAA late last week issued special airworthiness information bulletins NM-10-12 and NM-10-13 to address a glitch in software for Honeywell NZ-2000 and FMZ-2000/IC-615/IC-800/IC-1080 Primus Epic flight management systems. Affected units are installed on a wide range of business jets manufactured by Cessna, Bombardier, Dassault Falcon, Gulfstream, Hawker Beechcraft and Embraer, as well as several regional jets and airliners. The problem was discovered during an Rnav approach on a Bombardier Challenger programmed with NZ-2000 FMS software version 5.2. According to the FAA, the airplane was flying the WAATS Three Arrival STAR into Salt Lake City International Airport. (The FAA incorrectly identifies the arrival as “WATTS” in SAIB NM-10-12.) “A different runway was selected in the FMS during the STAR, and resulted in the FMS navigating the airplane toward the initial STAR waypoint instead of the next sequential STAR waypoint,” the FAA said. As a result of this incident, Honeywell issued a service information letter on October 15, to provide operators with guidelines for flight plan modifications made on the “arrival” page on the FMS, including a destination runway change. The FAA said this airworthiness concern is not an unsafe condition that would warrant issuance of an Airworthiness Directive.
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Somebody (a lot of people) mentioned costcutting as a point...
... Forgetting about how much maintenance a fully automated flight control (and decision making) system would require?
I can just see it now - the regulations requiring intricate and thorough inspection of all 'artificial human' systems after every completed day, if not every flight.
Add to this the certification required to get the whole thing online (as previous posters have mentioned), and you're not going to be saving much (if any) money at all. Certainly nowhere near what would justify 'x number of hull losses'...
... Forgetting about how much maintenance a fully automated flight control (and decision making) system would require?
I can just see it now - the regulations requiring intricate and thorough inspection of all 'artificial human' systems after every completed day, if not every flight.
Add to this the certification required to get the whole thing online (as previous posters have mentioned), and you're not going to be saving much (if any) money at all. Certainly nowhere near what would justify 'x number of hull losses'...
A Runyonesque Character
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Just think about it for a moment …
The certification process – how long would it take for a pilotless passenger aircraft to be certified? How much would the process cost? Who would pay for it? Boeing? Airbus? What would be in it for them? Which certification agency would have the balls to say ‘we guarantee this will be 100% safe’?
Because at the end of the day, who would buy it? Seriously – who would be the first airline to operate pilotless? What incentives would they have to offer to get anyone on board? €9.99 tickets? Ryanair do that already. Regular airlines would match the pilotless fares and NoCrew Airlines would be out of business quicker than Varsity Express.
Or if they did stay airborne, the very first accident and that would be that – project cancelled, 25 years of development and billions of development dosh wasted.
Oh – and by the way, they wouldn’t be pilotless. The pilot would be sitting on the ground, in front of an instrument panel with flight controls at his disposal. Just as highly paid, just as expensively trained, all you would save are the hotel bills and the overseas allowances.
The certification process – how long would it take for a pilotless passenger aircraft to be certified? How much would the process cost? Who would pay for it? Boeing? Airbus? What would be in it for them? Which certification agency would have the balls to say ‘we guarantee this will be 100% safe’?
Because at the end of the day, who would buy it? Seriously – who would be the first airline to operate pilotless? What incentives would they have to offer to get anyone on board? €9.99 tickets? Ryanair do that already. Regular airlines would match the pilotless fares and NoCrew Airlines would be out of business quicker than Varsity Express.
Or if they did stay airborne, the very first accident and that would be that – project cancelled, 25 years of development and billions of development dosh wasted.
Oh – and by the way, they wouldn’t be pilotless. The pilot would be sitting on the ground, in front of an instrument panel with flight controls at his disposal. Just as highly paid, just as expensively trained, all you would save are the hotel bills and the overseas allowances.
Why aren't the thousands of trains running across Europe and the US/Canada running driverless if unmanned is so good?
There are. the Docklands Light Railway
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Analogy with automatic trains
If you look at what has happened with the introduction of automatic trains you can get an idea of what could happen in aviation.
Train drivers on automatic lines are now called 'train operators' who are there primarily to close the doors when they can see it is safe to do so on a cctv monitor. They are trained to try and fix the train when it develops a fault (by following instructions on the screen) and if the train really pulls up in a heap to manage evacuation of the passengers. On the 'driverless' docklands line in London there is still a train operator on board the train but they perform other duties as well such as ticket checking. This is the way the industry is going across metro and commuter services, certainly in Europe.
So by analogy in aviation you could see 'fully automatic' passenger aircraft but they will not be pilot-less. They will have 'aircraft operators' on board who are trained how to sort it out in an emergency but do other things like serve the pax in the meantime. They will still need to sit in the front with windows and make excuses on the PA as to why the aircraft is running late - as do train operators!
G
Train drivers on automatic lines are now called 'train operators' who are there primarily to close the doors when they can see it is safe to do so on a cctv monitor. They are trained to try and fix the train when it develops a fault (by following instructions on the screen) and if the train really pulls up in a heap to manage evacuation of the passengers. On the 'driverless' docklands line in London there is still a train operator on board the train but they perform other duties as well such as ticket checking. This is the way the industry is going across metro and commuter services, certainly in Europe.
So by analogy in aviation you could see 'fully automatic' passenger aircraft but they will not be pilot-less. They will have 'aircraft operators' on board who are trained how to sort it out in an emergency but do other things like serve the pax in the meantime. They will still need to sit in the front with windows and make excuses on the PA as to why the aircraft is running late - as do train operators!
G
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I have used the DLR several times, and not seen a "Train operator" yet
Go Unions!
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The Singularity
If you haven't heard of it - Google it now, and see your future.
At an indeterminate point in our future - some say well within 20 years - computers will exceed human capacity and intelligence. And here's the kicker: It is from this point that we - as humans - can in no way predict or even comprehend what will happen in the development of this new super-human intelligence.
Technology will increase logarithmically, as hyper-intelligence begats hyper-intelligence.
So, you can predict all you like, and say "Never!" or "Not in my lifetime!", but the only think that is certain is that we have no idea what the future holds for us in terms of technology.
The biggest challenge I see for any automated flight will be mastery over the atmospheric conditions. Turbulence, ice, microbursts, lightning, thunderstorms, tornados - the list goes on. Once the sensor technology can reliably sense the environment at a distance to afford avoidance, the game's up.
And who knows what else will come to fruition at the hands of the hyper-intelligentsia? Anti-gravity? Immortality as an upload? If you're around, it will be quite exciting!
At an indeterminate point in our future - some say well within 20 years - computers will exceed human capacity and intelligence. And here's the kicker: It is from this point that we - as humans - can in no way predict or even comprehend what will happen in the development of this new super-human intelligence.
Technology will increase logarithmically, as hyper-intelligence begats hyper-intelligence.
So, you can predict all you like, and say "Never!" or "Not in my lifetime!", but the only think that is certain is that we have no idea what the future holds for us in terms of technology.
The biggest challenge I see for any automated flight will be mastery over the atmospheric conditions. Turbulence, ice, microbursts, lightning, thunderstorms, tornados - the list goes on. Once the sensor technology can reliably sense the environment at a distance to afford avoidance, the game's up.
And who knows what else will come to fruition at the hands of the hyper-intelligentsia? Anti-gravity? Immortality as an upload? If you're around, it will be quite exciting!
At an indeterminate point in our future - some say well within 20 years - computers will exceed human capacity and intelligence. And here's the kicker: It is from this point that we - as humans - can in no way predict or even comprehend what will happen in the development of this new super-human intelligence.
The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th.
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Mainly I am just annoyed that you beat me to the joke!
In a more related manner I was watching a programme yesterday which discussed such matters. The biggest problem computers face in terms of automation, except of course all the bugs Bill Gates has put in them, is their ability to interact and learn.
You call a travel agent over the phone and tell them you need to go to New York, firstly the travel agent knows as you live in Cleveland that, flying is probably the best option so will ask "when do you need to fly', to which you reply that you have a meeting at 9 am on the 4th. So the travel agent starts looking at flights to get you into New York the night before or at least sufficiently before 9 am for you to shower, change and travel to your meeting. At no time did you say I want a flight, or I want the flight to depart at 9pm on the evening of the 3rd, but the squidgy brain in a person's head knows from more obtuse information what to do.
Can you imagine ATC passing on information to a pilot-less aircraft? It would be like traintracker in the UK; "After the beep please say the name of the station you are travelling from". "Eastbourne". "Did you say Glasgow?".
Meanwhile at a UK airport by the time the automatic jet has deciphered what the Geordie accent is saying about the comms out aircraft heading towards it (No squawk from this GA aircraft so no lovely TCAS), and has worked out how to deal with multiple failures in ever worsening weather, it's too late as Microsoft fails again and the Stewardess is greeted with a blue screen error when she goes to the cabin terminal to find out the flight status. This error simply says "Please PA for a Pilot".
Will it never happen? Oh I doubt it, but is it close? I doubt that even more.
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See the threads now running on the latest CX incident with the the A330 at Hong Kong. Do you see fully automated flight in your future? I don't think so.
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Air Traffic Engineers have long spoken of the stupidity of having a computer in the air talking to computers on the ground via a human to human interface. Its the humans mishearing or misunderstanding communications that cause the problems.
As for checking the AI after every flight there is no need - simply reboot it and its back to the original state already tested.
As for checking the AI after every flight there is no need - simply reboot it and its back to the original state already tested.
Um, it's all very well this techy talk of autolanding in 30 kts across (40 for the Triple)..but we do realise, don't we, that in the non-virtual world a lot of runways aren't ILS equipped - even in the US of A, certainly in Europe and Africa? Never mind passenger acceptance, we're a long way off full automation 100% of the time until we have GPS/GNSS autoland -how far off is that (serious question)?....
