Andrew Miller, Piper Seneca V, OO-TML, in-flight breakup - September 2009 Portugal.
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As no sig points out accident investigators work in concert with manufacturers and airlines who have a vested interest in the outcome of any investigation.
We also found that in major investigations investigators work only within their field of expertise and can fail to see the overall picture.
In both the investigations I quoted it took people outside the establishment to ascertain the true cause.
We also found that in major investigations investigators work only within their field of expertise and can fail to see the overall picture.
In both the investigations I quoted it took people outside the establishment to ascertain the true cause.
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This forum reaches a vast group of professionals, experts and enthusiasts in the aviation industry. Their opinions are valued and should be encouraged. We must not forget what the parents of a victim of UA811 were able to achieve.
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Landing gear.
BoeingMEL,
I didn't see any pictures of the landing gear being down, only reference to it being (apparently) selected down.
But on most small Pipers the landing gear is held in the UP position by hydraulic pressure alone. No locks. Loss of Hyd pressure will cause the gear to freefall down.
During the break up the hyd lines will have failed causing loss of pressure and subsequent free fall of the gear.
I didn't see any pictures of the landing gear being down, only reference to it being (apparently) selected down.
But on most small Pipers the landing gear is held in the UP position by hydraulic pressure alone. No locks. Loss of Hyd pressure will cause the gear to freefall down.
During the break up the hyd lines will have failed causing loss of pressure and subsequent free fall of the gear.
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We would like to open up discussion on the radar data supplied on page 5 of the Preliminary Report - see link below. Surely, certain scenarios could be discounted based on this information and others not. We are interested as to why there was a loss of transponder information in such a short space of time after what appears to be level flight at a constant ground speed.
http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...22331moptc.pdf
http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...22331moptc.pdf
Last edited by wunfoDREW; 29th Nov 2009 at 13:14.
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As far as situational awareness is concerned, it was planned to be a use of "autopilot and flight director" IFR training flight, which was made in excellent weather conditions on a straight airway. The area, whilst being sparsely populated, does have a number of villages and small towns, which should have been clearly visible.
A report of the accident of PH-SNA is available via the BFU website;
http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_005/nn_223...94_CX027-0.pdf
The conclusion of the German Accident Investigation :
Zum Unfall kam es, weil das Flugzeug infolge einer Überbeanspruchung der Struktur nach einem abrupten Höhensteuerausschlag seine Flugfähigkeit verlor. Zum Entstehen des unzulässigen Lastfalles hatte möglicherweise ein Defekt im Autoflight-System beigetragen. Ausgehend von diesem Defekt konnte sich in Verbindung mit einer Unachtsamkeit des Flugzeugführers eine Fehltrimmsituation am Flugzeug entwickeln, die sich wie beschrieben auswirkte.
In a free translation:
The aircraft lost its flying capablities after an abrupt elevator deflection caused structural limits to be exceeded. A possible cause was a defect in the Autoflight-System. Assuming that this defect took place together with the failure of the flight instructor to observe an abnormal trim situation (trim-runaway), led to the sequence of events.
Last edited by PH-SCP; 29th Nov 2009 at 14:38. Reason: used wrong fonts
I am aware that there have been catastrophic in flight failures previously which were attributed to the rudder trim tab becomes disconnected and the resultant flutter has resulted in the loss of the aircraft. While this may not have occurred in this case it is certainly worth while looking at this AAIB report from 1994 which provides information on such events.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_502128.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_502128.pdf
Last edited by happybiker; 29th Nov 2009 at 14:55. Reason: Incorrect information. Elevator trim should read rudder trim
Presumably the investigators will look closely into the instructional technique used by the instructor in that aircraft. Other students who had previously flown with him would have good knowledge of his techniques. An in-flight break up such as described does not occur in normal straight and level flight assuming no thunderstorm penetration. There could be many reasons that the aircraft assumed an unusual attitude although an experienced instructor should have no trouble recovering from one provided he had received proper training. A failed artificial horizon (or covered over to simulate failure) may lead to mishandling by whoever is flying at the time and in IMC it doesn't take long before the aircraft goes into a steep spiral dive. If the instructor is not proficient or current at stopping this from happening, a serious situation may occur. In my experience there is often lack of serious training for failure of the artificial horizon in light training aircraft. The standby flight instrument called the Turn-Coordinator is a vital instrument because if an artificial horizon fails or gives erroneous attitude information, the pilot must be proficient on then using the Turn Coordinator. This should be practiced in a flight simulator first as it can be a very difficult part of flying on instruments.
Some instructors are known to simulate failures of flight instruments while flying and this can be hazardous under certain conditions like night or in cloud. In-flight break up is usually caused by delayed or incorrect recovery from an unusual attitude. What or who initiated the unusual attitude is the big question and without a CVR or FDR this may never be known for certain.
Some instructors are known to simulate failures of flight instruments while flying and this can be hazardous under certain conditions like night or in cloud. In-flight break up is usually caused by delayed or incorrect recovery from an unusual attitude. What or who initiated the unusual attitude is the big question and without a CVR or FDR this may never be known for certain.
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my thoughts
I'm so sorry to hear of your loss and I hope that you can find peace in knowing he was doing what he loved to do.
Has anyone looked at pilot incapcitation issues and perhaps a collision with birds or something else? A very precise review of the maintanence logs of both engines and the airframe may offer some hints as to any possible contibuting factors. An independent review may help ease your mind on such issues. I'm a B-777 Captain and have not flown light aircraft for many years, but I do know that the training environment is much harder on aircraft and engines than just normal everyday use.I review of any past history such as hard landings, engine issues, airframe overspeed incidents and avionics maintenance history may cast a light on potential stresses put on the aircraft itself. Currency of maintenace and inspections should also be looked at. I hope that this helps a little bit. I do agree with most of the other comments made in this formum about waht might have happened. If I can be of further help, let me know.
Jim Ferrai, Severna Park, Maryland USA
Has anyone looked at pilot incapcitation issues and perhaps a collision with birds or something else? A very precise review of the maintanence logs of both engines and the airframe may offer some hints as to any possible contibuting factors. An independent review may help ease your mind on such issues. I'm a B-777 Captain and have not flown light aircraft for many years, but I do know that the training environment is much harder on aircraft and engines than just normal everyday use.I review of any past history such as hard landings, engine issues, airframe overspeed incidents and avionics maintenance history may cast a light on potential stresses put on the aircraft itself. Currency of maintenace and inspections should also be looked at. I hope that this helps a little bit. I do agree with most of the other comments made in this formum about waht might have happened. If I can be of further help, let me know.
Jim Ferrai, Severna Park, Maryland USA
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Mr and Mrs Miller,
My condolences on your loss.
Are you in touch with the OVV? There should be a Dutch 'Expert' appointed to the Portuguese investiugation, according to ICAO Annex 13 Chapter 5.
He should be given access to investigative material, and may be able to influence the nature of the investigation.
You might also consider getting in touch directly with Mr Lourenco.
There are independent accident investigators who work freelance, but I think your first strategy should be to understand the official Annex 13 investigation, and exert influence as you see fit to ensre it is conducted properly.
I'll look at the report again later and try to offer some insight.
My condolences on your loss.
Are you in touch with the OVV? There should be a Dutch 'Expert' appointed to the Portuguese investiugation, according to ICAO Annex 13 Chapter 5.
He should be given access to investigative material, and may be able to influence the nature of the investigation.
You might also consider getting in touch directly with Mr Lourenco.
There are independent accident investigators who work freelance, but I think your first strategy should be to understand the official Annex 13 investigation, and exert influence as you see fit to ensre it is conducted properly.
I'll look at the report again later and try to offer some insight.
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I am really sorry this is awful news for you and any parents nightmare.
I have over 3000 hrs in Seneca fives in all weather day and night and all over Europe. They are very forgiving well tried and tested aircraft.
I noted the aircraft was a 1998 version. That is one of the earlier Seneca fives which was kitted out with King avionics and a King Autopilot. This later changed to the S tech autopilot unit.
I flew a 1998 aircraft and while I always thought the King unit was a better autopilot than the S tech the aircraft went into a very violent wing over while on autopilot and completely out of the blue. So violent it would have been a major problem at night.
Problems with the autopilot first manifested as a slight lateral wing rock which was there for some time
As this appears to be an IFR practice flight at night rather than manouvres something odd must have happened to have caused this accident?
It maybe worth a consideration?
The gear being down may have been an attempt at a behond VNE recovery or maybe it was never retracted in the first place?
You may have to come to terms with the fact that there may never be a definative answer as to what happened on that awful night. it is also of note that The instructor was low time on this aircraft with 80 odd hours.
I have over 3000 hrs in Seneca fives in all weather day and night and all over Europe. They are very forgiving well tried and tested aircraft.
I noted the aircraft was a 1998 version. That is one of the earlier Seneca fives which was kitted out with King avionics and a King Autopilot. This later changed to the S tech autopilot unit.
I flew a 1998 aircraft and while I always thought the King unit was a better autopilot than the S tech the aircraft went into a very violent wing over while on autopilot and completely out of the blue. So violent it would have been a major problem at night.
Problems with the autopilot first manifested as a slight lateral wing rock which was there for some time
As this appears to be an IFR practice flight at night rather than manouvres something odd must have happened to have caused this accident?
It maybe worth a consideration?
The gear being down may have been an attempt at a behond VNE recovery or maybe it was never retracted in the first place?
You may have to come to terms with the fact that there may never be a definative answer as to what happened on that awful night. it is also of note that The instructor was low time on this aircraft with 80 odd hours.
Last edited by Pace; 19th Jan 2010 at 07:42.
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More information
Dear Mr.Miller
First I would like to express my condolences for your loss.
I work at A.A.E and after all these months I´ve taken the decission to contact you with the only objetive of avoing more accidents, more deaths.The situation is desperate and perhaps you can achieve something else than me.
Let me give you more information about the aircraft crashed OO-TML.
As you know, this aircraft was leased from BAFA Antwerp.The intermediate for the lease by NLS (Nederlandse Luchtvaartschool). During the flight from Belgium to Èvora (A.A.E) the pilots had an engine failure.A few days before accident an instructor advised to C.F.I that the these aircraft was not able for flying due some malfuntions, why nobody made anything?
It`s no only a rumour, it`s the opinion of most of us, we think that during the flight at cruise level was an extension of the flaps or some problem in the rudder, something like the accident in 1994 with the result of 2 deaths.
One of the greatest responsibles of the maintenance has been dismissed suddenly. Why?
If you can do something for us, for the students, for the future of the school, for avoiding more accidents, more deaths, we all of us will be very thankful.
First I would like to express my condolences for your loss.
I work at A.A.E and after all these months I´ve taken the decission to contact you with the only objetive of avoing more accidents, more deaths.The situation is desperate and perhaps you can achieve something else than me.
Let me give you more information about the aircraft crashed OO-TML.
As you know, this aircraft was leased from BAFA Antwerp.The intermediate for the lease by NLS (Nederlandse Luchtvaartschool). During the flight from Belgium to Èvora (A.A.E) the pilots had an engine failure.A few days before accident an instructor advised to C.F.I that the these aircraft was not able for flying due some malfuntions, why nobody made anything?
It`s no only a rumour, it`s the opinion of most of us, we think that during the flight at cruise level was an extension of the flaps or some problem in the rudder, something like the accident in 1994 with the result of 2 deaths.
One of the greatest responsibles of the maintenance has been dismissed suddenly. Why?
If you can do something for us, for the students, for the future of the school, for avoiding more accidents, more deaths, we all of us will be very thankful.
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Nose baggage compartment
I am unable to read report, can only read french and english. Does anyone know where the nose baggage door and latch mechanism were found? Do we have pictures of any of the nose fiberglass items?
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Does anyone hava any pictures of the fiberglass nose cone or pieces therof, the forward baggage door, and the left propeller? If you do please send then to [email protected]
Thank you,
Thank you,
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Send me some pictures, please?
Does anyone have any opinion as to why the left engine has no cowlings at all and the right one does?
I believe you may be onto something, maybe, just maybe, the nose baggage door latch mechanism got wrapped up in the left propeller and tore the cowling off. Just like it did in Oklahoma in 85 and in Boston in 87. See senecacrash.com
I believe you may be onto something, maybe, just maybe, the nose baggage door latch mechanism got wrapped up in the left propeller and tore the cowling off. Just like it did in Oklahoma in 85 and in Boston in 87. See senecacrash.com
