Since 911; do the Tech crews miss the frequent PAX requests visit the cockpit?
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Since 911; do the Tech crews miss the frequent PAX requests visit the cockpit?
I have been a frequent viewer of PPRuNe, and have noted that some pilots, who I respect by their informative posts, appear to have slowly become grumpy since the 9/11 locked in security door feeling, disconnecting them from the mainstream public (SLF's as they are now referred to) referring to those PAX who regularly made requests to view the front office for a bit of a chat about all the gauges and why is it so etc?
Back in the old days, the cockpit tech crews where regarded as the nice guys many of whom always greeted curious pax warmly, they were the great ambassadors for aviation and the airline they worked for.
Only the other day an Australian long-haul pilot friend of mine with 27 years flying the heavies, felt that it was time to move on as he feels the good old days of relaxed long haul flying has become the loneliest job on the planet. Some of his fellow pilots have been having similar discussions.
Of course there must be pilots who love to be locked away from the (SLF's) and their silly requests/questions, but I feel that there are plenty others who miss a bit of a chinwag with interested aviation enthusiasts.
Would be interested in pilots views on this subject, have we become grumpy old men/women or a little too serious in an industry which was once known for its very special sense of humour?
Back in the old days, the cockpit tech crews where regarded as the nice guys many of whom always greeted curious pax warmly, they were the great ambassadors for aviation and the airline they worked for.
Only the other day an Australian long-haul pilot friend of mine with 27 years flying the heavies, felt that it was time to move on as he feels the good old days of relaxed long haul flying has become the loneliest job on the planet. Some of his fellow pilots have been having similar discussions.
Of course there must be pilots who love to be locked away from the (SLF's) and their silly requests/questions, but I feel that there are plenty others who miss a bit of a chinwag with interested aviation enthusiasts.
Would be interested in pilots views on this subject, have we become grumpy old men/women or a little too serious in an industry which was once known for its very special sense of humour?
Isolation is a form of prison
I am not, and have never been in an airline with a crew door.
When this policy came in I could see the potential for the further destruction of pilots status and well-being. It can do no good to become isolated from others, even if you don't particularly like them - perhaps especially if you don't like them.
The public are losing respect for airline pilots, and we are losing touch with other human beings - this can't be good for us collectively.
By rights, we should have made a passionate stand against the ridiculous security regulations that result in little old ladies being relieved of their knitting needles, and nail files. Perhaps then we could have earned some respect. It seems that the vocal minority seemed to like the idea of senselessly bashing pax and acting like scared fools. The sensible majority chose to keep their counsel, rather than risk being hailed a terrorist sympathiser.
"All it takes for evil to flourish, is for men of good will to do nothing"
As a pilot, I lost respect for the profession after that.
Hail Big Brother, God help us.
When this policy came in I could see the potential for the further destruction of pilots status and well-being. It can do no good to become isolated from others, even if you don't particularly like them - perhaps especially if you don't like them.
The public are losing respect for airline pilots, and we are losing touch with other human beings - this can't be good for us collectively.
By rights, we should have made a passionate stand against the ridiculous security regulations that result in little old ladies being relieved of their knitting needles, and nail files. Perhaps then we could have earned some respect. It seems that the vocal minority seemed to like the idea of senselessly bashing pax and acting like scared fools. The sensible majority chose to keep their counsel, rather than risk being hailed a terrorist sympathiser.
"All it takes for evil to flourish, is for men of good will to do nothing"
As a pilot, I lost respect for the profession after that.
Hail Big Brother, God help us.
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As a youngster, I loved the "open cockpit" policy. I was NEVER refused a visit, and from about 12 years old onwards, was allowed to jump seat many DC3, and later F27, sectors. Those Queensland Airlines (QAL) guys were my heros.
As an airline pilot in later years, I always enjoyed the many visits from the travelling public. My happiest moment was when I invited my ex Primary School teacher (Ex RAAF / WWII / Halifax) for the sector. He made the remark that he was glad that at least one of his students had "made good".
My funniest cockpit visitors were my first cockpit visitors as a Captain, two hookers on their way to make a quick fortune in an Australian mining town. That kind of set the tone for future visitors.
Yes SLF, I miss you all VERY much, I love flying, and miss those people with whom I can share a little of the experience.
Regards,
Old Smokey
As an airline pilot in later years, I always enjoyed the many visits from the travelling public. My happiest moment was when I invited my ex Primary School teacher (Ex RAAF / WWII / Halifax) for the sector. He made the remark that he was glad that at least one of his students had "made good".
My funniest cockpit visitors were my first cockpit visitors as a Captain, two hookers on their way to make a quick fortune in an Australian mining town. That kind of set the tone for future visitors.
Yes SLF, I miss you all VERY much, I love flying, and miss those people with whom I can share a little of the experience.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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I'm 'Half & Half' on this one.
True, It is more remote now since the pax are not allowed onto the FD.
But don't forget certain Airlines never really encouraged nor allowed FD visits anyway, So there has been no change for them - eg - AMM/ TOM & TCX (Coming from exp).
A FD visit is really just a 'Discretionally' brief 10 minute visit to see & chat about the A/c.
You can't really get into a conversation in that time.
And there is not much time anyway, But they always say a 'Busy man makes time'
How many men do that then??
Not many thesedays (Coming from exp)
True, It is more remote now since the pax are not allowed onto the FD.
But don't forget certain Airlines never really encouraged nor allowed FD visits anyway, So there has been no change for them - eg - AMM/ TOM & TCX (Coming from exp).
A FD visit is really just a 'Discretionally' brief 10 minute visit to see & chat about the A/c.
You can't really get into a conversation in that time.
And there is not much time anyway, But they always say a 'Busy man makes time'
How many men do that then??
Not many thesedays (Coming from exp)
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Cockpit visits had their place in aviation in their time. But that time passed when a bunch of terrorists decided to take over planes all too easily and cut the pilots throats, and then commit mass suicide, and an African nutter (who was free in no time) decided that it was time for a 747 load of people to die. So the locked door policy is here for good! Whatever effect it has on the pilots or the passengers is irrelevant- the job must be done and peoples' safety assured as far as is possible. Period.
So there has been no change for them - eg - AMM/ TOM & TCX (Coming from exp)
Interesting - in days long past, my daughters were regularly invited for flight deck visits on AMM long-haul flights, specifically for take-off and landing. My current next-of-kin was always very dubious about this, "in case the pilots were distracted"!
Jack
Interesting - in days long past, my daughters were regularly invited for flight deck visits on AMM long-haul flights, specifically for take-off and landing. My current next-of-kin was always very dubious about this, "in case the pilots were distracted"!
Jack
Buttonpusher
In all honesty I don't recall anyone coming to visit over the age of 10, and the reason they do then is so mom and pop can take a picture of their pride and joy sitting in my seat wearing my hat thats been sitting in the back of my Jeep for several days.
Of course all the paranoia about security hasn't helped either in having visitors.
Of course all the paranoia about security hasn't helped either in having visitors.
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I am a RAF helicopter pilot and recently had the pleasure of taking my family on a duty flight on one of Her Majesty's Tri-Stars. Luckily enough, I knew the Flt Eng who invited my son (aged 2) and me onto the flt deck. Master Rotorvator had a fantastic 45 mins pushing buttons, twiddling knobs etc, I received a decent cup of coffee and Mrs. R had a break from junior; every one's a winner!
I suppose having a Dad in the Air Force has at least one benefit!
I suppose having a Dad in the Air Force has at least one benefit!
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I used to ask to visit the flight deck quite a bit and my requests were almost always granted. I think you could tell if the crew liked you as they'd ask you back for the landing!
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Whilst for some it was a pleasure, I can recall many visitors sitting there during takeoff and landing trying to converse with the pilot or flight engineer. With 3 visitors on the flight deck of a 747 we did an intermediate climb and whilst 3 separate conversations were going on, we had a surge with an out of control temperature occur. Only I heard it and we had to shut down immediately.
Whilst visits were nice for the minority (the rest you discovered were just bored or tipsy or 20 months old), I'm sorry, but the flight deck of a 550mph plane with up to 400 people on board is no place to give hospitality. The airways are too busy, the radio is too busy and things happen too fast. That age is gone. I'm happy for quick visits after arrival, but no more is possible.
Whilst visits were nice for the minority (the rest you discovered were just bored or tipsy or 20 months old), I'm sorry, but the flight deck of a 550mph plane with up to 400 people on board is no place to give hospitality. The airways are too busy, the radio is too busy and things happen too fast. That age is gone. I'm happy for quick visits after arrival, but no more is possible.
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Rainboe,
no offence but your posts are really going downhill me 'ole mucker. Before I took them with a pinch of salt and even laughed and joined in so that we could wind up the original poster or who ever contradicted the main opinion - the thread on a BA747 blocking the taxiway "on purpose" in J'berg was a good example.
But you seem to be awfully grumpy of late. I loved cockpit visits as a child and it further affirmed, at such a young age, that I wanted to be a pilot and I am sure this is true for many of our colleagues. I also enjoyed (albeit for a short period before 9/11) having passengers come to the cockpit. Once in cruise, there is always time to speak with visitors - remember, you make the decision first whether it is an appropriate time to accept visitors. And once they arrive, you could politely say that if you stop talking or don't answer anything immediately, don't think we are ignoring you.
I would love cockpit visits to return - If only to look at the the yummy mummies. Flash them a smile, give them a wink, make a few innuendoes about thrust. You get the picture.
no offence but your posts are really going downhill me 'ole mucker. Before I took them with a pinch of salt and even laughed and joined in so that we could wind up the original poster or who ever contradicted the main opinion - the thread on a BA747 blocking the taxiway "on purpose" in J'berg was a good example.
But you seem to be awfully grumpy of late. I loved cockpit visits as a child and it further affirmed, at such a young age, that I wanted to be a pilot and I am sure this is true for many of our colleagues. I also enjoyed (albeit for a short period before 9/11) having passengers come to the cockpit. Once in cruise, there is always time to speak with visitors - remember, you make the decision first whether it is an appropriate time to accept visitors. And once they arrive, you could politely say that if you stop talking or don't answer anything immediately, don't think we are ignoring you.
I would love cockpit visits to return - If only to look at the the yummy mummies. Flash them a smile, give them a wink, make a few innuendoes about thrust. You get the picture.
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Perhaps it's as well they're history I think! You can't behave like that these days- you'll be had up before the Pprune tribunal before you know it.
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I miss the flight deck visits. Some people were a tad strange but most were pleasant and really enjoyed their experience.
More concerning, is having to attempt to communicate with Cabin Crew on a crackly intercom that rarely allows effective communication.
More concerning, is having to attempt to communicate with Cabin Crew on a crackly intercom that rarely allows effective communication.
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The other side of the door
As a recreational private pilot, and frequent representative of the SLF population, I have to add that my pursuit of aviation for the sheer joy of it, and dare I say my airmanship and safety consiciousness, was fundamentally and positively affected by frequent whole-flight (often including a meal!?) jumpseat rides in the front from YSSY to YMEL & back in the pre-lockdown days. I miss those times intensely, some of my fondest aviation memories.
It's great to see posts by the lads and ladies up front saying they also miss visits by the public, attractive or otherwise, and hopefully more junior pilots as well!
Also a thrill to learn that outside the US and UK, the ultimate permission is up to the person in the left seat, as I was taught, and as it should be. So the good ol' days are not necessarily gone forever.
Looking forward to my next opportunity to politely ask the head attendant and show my license and ASIC, after the long hiatus. Even a polite "No, I'm sorry" is better than not even feeling comfortable enough to ask without causing trouble.
sleat
It's great to see posts by the lads and ladies up front saying they also miss visits by the public, attractive or otherwise, and hopefully more junior pilots as well!
Also a thrill to learn that outside the US and UK, the ultimate permission is up to the person in the left seat, as I was taught, and as it should be. So the good ol' days are not necessarily gone forever.
Looking forward to my next opportunity to politely ask the head attendant and show my license and ASIC, after the long hiatus. Even a polite "No, I'm sorry" is better than not even feeling comfortable enough to ask without causing trouble.
sleat
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Pilots are the airline ambassodors surly
Some very interesting replies regarding my post, I see both sides of the argument. The reason I posted this was to may be bring up some old memories of my visits to the FD.
I grew up on the flight path of 16/34 KSA (YSSY) and as a child all I wanted to do was fly. I grew up with a family of pilots (ex bomber command UK transferring to QF after ww2)
When I was 17 I used to enjoy watching the QF DC4 (serving KSA and Norfolk Island) on finals that used to buzz my house frequently. You could not help but notice that” quadraphonic DC 3 engine sound” and asked myself the question, why would QF want to keep these old birds flying as QF by then where changing over to an all 742 classic fleet.
I just wanted to know more, so in the school holidays I stuffed chickens at a local chicken shop to get enough money for a fare to fly to Norfolk Island.
A few months later my dream had come true, with ticket in hand I arrived well before departure time, an excited young aviation enthusiast.
By sheer luck I was lucky enough to meet an Australian Aviation Icon Captain Aden Wicks (not that I knew it at the time) who was making his way to prepare for the flight. I said hello, thinking he would nod and just keep walking.
He didn’t, he paused and said cheerfully hello back and asked me where I was travelling to. I said Norfolk Island as I love the DC 4 and proceeded to tell him my reason why. I said, I wanted to be on the inside of that distinctive engine sound that has been buzzing my house for years. He replied, “Well I suppose it’s my fault that you are here today, I will your captain today.” He asked my name and excused himself departing with the comment “see you on the flight.” I thought what a nice guy then quickly forgot about his departing remark.
After we departed the PA sprung to life “this is your Captain speaking, I would like to welcome you all aboard, today we have a special guest with us Mr. TimA9X who is having his first flight on our wonderful DC4. You guessed it, everyone on board knew who I was, the young guy with the red face. After we leveled off there was a tap on the shoulder from the purser, “the Captain would like you to join him on the flight deck,” smiled and lead me to the pointy end.
I was as quiet as a church mouse for what seemed to be almost an hour listening to the crew run through their procedures but having it all explained to me as we went along. The cabin door opened, and in popped the purser. I thought well times up, so I started to thank everyone for their time. Captain Wickes stopped me in my tracks; he said “he wants to know if I wanted beef or chicken as I was welcome to stay with them for lunch.” I replied "of course thanks for the invite, I am honoured."
As I was feeling a little more relaxed, I finally got the courage to ask “why does QF keep flying these old girls, aren’t they a little old compared to the QF fleet.” Captain Wicks quickly replied, the DC4 is perfect for this route, short strip and the Island is about three hundred feet above sea level on approach and it handles the updraft/down drafts well.” Apparently Norfolk Island was notorious for these conditions.
Captain Wicks went on to explain,” I prefer to fly the DC4 as you really have to fly it compared to the 742 that flies itself, QF will have to retire the aircraft, I suppose then I will be forced to move on to something else.” The crew chuckled while nodding in unison.
As we started our decent, I went back to church mouse mode listening to all the checks and procedures. He was right, many bumps, and as Norfolk became a speck in the distance, he turned and said “ it’s about here we start to get the updrafts/down drafts, about 30 seconds later they started but not too serve, I heard him say to the FO “looks like we will balloon it today” which had me scratching my head. Sure enough when we hit the coast/cliffs the AC raised a few feet, power down and we touched down bang on the piano keys. I t occurred to me that I just had the best lesson a young aspiring pilot could wish for! I will never forget it! I wanted to become an airline pilot from that day on.
adenwickes.com - Qantas days
Forgive me for making this a little long winded, but I think this story is a fine example of how much airline pilots are the airlines best ambassador’s, no matter how the bean counters, and the ever increasing costly security industry see it.
It took 9/11 to change the face of aviation forever, the LCCs, some who treat the pilots as nothing more than a commodity. Sometimes I feel it won’t be long before the LCC’s make it mandatory that pilots carry a broom on their flight bags so in their spare time on turn-around they will have to sweep the entire aircraft!
Guys like Captain Wicks and countless other similar pilot personalities who flew pre 9/11 I salute you, I truly believe these pilots encouraged young people like myself to fly.
I strongly believe since 9/11 the industry has changed for the worse as some have said above, the question is, can pilot respect ever be restored so that the public feel connected again? or is there another way?
I grew up on the flight path of 16/34 KSA (YSSY) and as a child all I wanted to do was fly. I grew up with a family of pilots (ex bomber command UK transferring to QF after ww2)
When I was 17 I used to enjoy watching the QF DC4 (serving KSA and Norfolk Island) on finals that used to buzz my house frequently. You could not help but notice that” quadraphonic DC 3 engine sound” and asked myself the question, why would QF want to keep these old birds flying as QF by then where changing over to an all 742 classic fleet.
I just wanted to know more, so in the school holidays I stuffed chickens at a local chicken shop to get enough money for a fare to fly to Norfolk Island.
A few months later my dream had come true, with ticket in hand I arrived well before departure time, an excited young aviation enthusiast.
By sheer luck I was lucky enough to meet an Australian Aviation Icon Captain Aden Wicks (not that I knew it at the time) who was making his way to prepare for the flight. I said hello, thinking he would nod and just keep walking.
He didn’t, he paused and said cheerfully hello back and asked me where I was travelling to. I said Norfolk Island as I love the DC 4 and proceeded to tell him my reason why. I said, I wanted to be on the inside of that distinctive engine sound that has been buzzing my house for years. He replied, “Well I suppose it’s my fault that you are here today, I will your captain today.” He asked my name and excused himself departing with the comment “see you on the flight.” I thought what a nice guy then quickly forgot about his departing remark.
After we departed the PA sprung to life “this is your Captain speaking, I would like to welcome you all aboard, today we have a special guest with us Mr. TimA9X who is having his first flight on our wonderful DC4. You guessed it, everyone on board knew who I was, the young guy with the red face. After we leveled off there was a tap on the shoulder from the purser, “the Captain would like you to join him on the flight deck,” smiled and lead me to the pointy end.
I was as quiet as a church mouse for what seemed to be almost an hour listening to the crew run through their procedures but having it all explained to me as we went along. The cabin door opened, and in popped the purser. I thought well times up, so I started to thank everyone for their time. Captain Wickes stopped me in my tracks; he said “he wants to know if I wanted beef or chicken as I was welcome to stay with them for lunch.” I replied "of course thanks for the invite, I am honoured."
As I was feeling a little more relaxed, I finally got the courage to ask “why does QF keep flying these old girls, aren’t they a little old compared to the QF fleet.” Captain Wicks quickly replied, the DC4 is perfect for this route, short strip and the Island is about three hundred feet above sea level on approach and it handles the updraft/down drafts well.” Apparently Norfolk Island was notorious for these conditions.
Captain Wicks went on to explain,” I prefer to fly the DC4 as you really have to fly it compared to the 742 that flies itself, QF will have to retire the aircraft, I suppose then I will be forced to move on to something else.” The crew chuckled while nodding in unison.
As we started our decent, I went back to church mouse mode listening to all the checks and procedures. He was right, many bumps, and as Norfolk became a speck in the distance, he turned and said “ it’s about here we start to get the updrafts/down drafts, about 30 seconds later they started but not too serve, I heard him say to the FO “looks like we will balloon it today” which had me scratching my head. Sure enough when we hit the coast/cliffs the AC raised a few feet, power down and we touched down bang on the piano keys. I t occurred to me that I just had the best lesson a young aspiring pilot could wish for! I will never forget it! I wanted to become an airline pilot from that day on.
adenwickes.com - Qantas days
Forgive me for making this a little long winded, but I think this story is a fine example of how much airline pilots are the airlines best ambassador’s, no matter how the bean counters, and the ever increasing costly security industry see it.
It took 9/11 to change the face of aviation forever, the LCCs, some who treat the pilots as nothing more than a commodity. Sometimes I feel it won’t be long before the LCC’s make it mandatory that pilots carry a broom on their flight bags so in their spare time on turn-around they will have to sweep the entire aircraft!
Guys like Captain Wicks and countless other similar pilot personalities who flew pre 9/11 I salute you, I truly believe these pilots encouraged young people like myself to fly.
I strongly believe since 9/11 the industry has changed for the worse as some have said above, the question is, can pilot respect ever be restored so that the public feel connected again? or is there another way?
Last edited by TIMA9X; 10th Jul 2009 at 01:53.
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I miss them.
If it wasn't for FD visits I was given as a child, I probably would not have become a pilot. Reciprocating was never a problem for me (and often injected with something unique, some question that took you quite off guard - and worse, had to think to find the answer!)
Now, with the insanity in the system, I am perfectly happy spending the greater portion of my life flying a desk. The aviation I grew into is dead
RIX
If it wasn't for FD visits I was given as a child, I probably would not have become a pilot. Reciprocating was never a problem for me (and often injected with something unique, some question that took you quite off guard - and worse, had to think to find the answer!)
Now, with the insanity in the system, I am perfectly happy spending the greater portion of my life flying a desk. The aviation I grew into is dead
RIX
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I was fortunate enough to visit the FD on a MAS DC10 some years prior to 911 and was even "blessed" to have had the oppurtunity to have been in the jumpseat for the landing too! To say it was one of the most memorable and enjoyable experiences I've ever had is an understatement! I am really gutted that this is no longer permitted,but then I do understand why it's been put in place too! Sod those God damned terrorists!!