Division Of Flying On The Flight Deck
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Division Of Flying On The Flight Deck
I fly for an airline that does not have a well defined policy on division or sharing of flying between the Commander and the First Officer. I would be interested to know if any of the companies that you guys fly for have a clear policy on the subject? Many thanks
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it is generally adheard to that we alternate each leg. there is still a couple of old fashion captians that think they shoud do all the flying or hold it out like a carrot.
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As an example, on a two sector day Captain will fly one leg and the F/O will fly the other all things being equal. As to who flies which leg there are many variables....is the weather at destination Cat1, if not it's the captains sector.Is the crosswind inside the company minima for the F/O? If not again it is the Captains sector. If the guy in the right seat is a SFO then this restriction on x-winds is lifted (at my company). If LVP.s are in force at the departure field and viz is less than the company minima for an FO to do the take off then again its the captains take off. Flying an NPA to minima my company recommends that the captain flies the approach. The over riding caveat is that at any time the Captain deems circumstances require him to take over, then he must do so. So even on a cracking gin clear day if my FO was showing signs of stress or was getting way behind the curve then I would not hesitate in taking over to ensure the continued safe operation of the flight
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Division Of Flying On The Flight Deck
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Rainboe +1.
Conventionally F/O's are allowed to share the flying responsibilities. Generally for two reasons:
- To share the workload.
- To allow the F/O to gain experience.
It is not written anywhere that an F/O MUST fly half the sectors. If the Captain thinks that it is safer for him to fly all the sectors then he can and will. Whether you think that is right or wrong.
If, on the day, you only get to be PF for one sector out of three you should think of this as gaining a sector as opposed to losing one.
Conventionally F/O's are allowed to share the flying responsibilities. Generally for two reasons:
- To share the workload.
- To allow the F/O to gain experience.
It is not written anywhere that an F/O MUST fly half the sectors. If the Captain thinks that it is safer for him to fly all the sectors then he can and will. Whether you think that is right or wrong.
If, on the day, you only get to be PF for one sector out of three you should think of this as gaining a sector as opposed to losing one.
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With most of the airlines I flew for, we shared PF/PNF sectors equally.
When I was captain, obviously, the selection of sector was my decision.
Everything been equal, I would take the first sector of the day.
If one sector, I would fly outbound, the return, next day for the colleague.
That was, by the way, policy with PanAm. Even trading seats when qualified.
xxx
I compare that with some airlines... I just shall mention from Asia.
Some colleagues ended their career in Asia, after PanAm.
They told me, often they offered a sector to their F/O...
And the F/O to admit, that he had never flown a line sector... ever.
xxx
Do not expect F/Os to be well qualified if you do not let them practice.
Captains, your ATPL includes instructor's privileges in airline service.
So, exercise that privilege, or are you having lack of self-confidence...?
xxx
I salute my old captains, the days I was a 707 or 727 F/O... Great guys.
Most were highly experienced pilots, and always provided plenty of practice.
Their techniques were never a "personal trade secret".
I hope I am well thought of, by my former F/Os. I did my best for them.
Even though retired, they often visit me. And still, they ask questions...
xxx
Happy contrails
When I was captain, obviously, the selection of sector was my decision.
Everything been equal, I would take the first sector of the day.
If one sector, I would fly outbound, the return, next day for the colleague.
That was, by the way, policy with PanAm. Even trading seats when qualified.
xxx
I compare that with some airlines... I just shall mention from Asia.
Some colleagues ended their career in Asia, after PanAm.
They told me, often they offered a sector to their F/O...
And the F/O to admit, that he had never flown a line sector... ever.
xxx
Do not expect F/Os to be well qualified if you do not let them practice.
Captains, your ATPL includes instructor's privileges in airline service.
So, exercise that privilege, or are you having lack of self-confidence...?
xxx
I salute my old captains, the days I was a 707 or 727 F/O... Great guys.
Most were highly experienced pilots, and always provided plenty of practice.
Their techniques were never a "personal trade secret".
I hope I am well thought of, by my former F/Os. I did my best for them.
Even though retired, they often visit me. And still, they ask questions...
xxx
Happy contrails
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It's the accepted norm in most airlines that it's a 50/50 share of the legs/sectors between the Captain and F/O.
I think that you must work for a pretty good airline COLTFLYBOY, I would NOT find it acceptable, as a Captain, to be obliged, as a matter of company policy, to give 50% of the flying to the F/O.
Before anyone adds me to their "bad guy" list, I give away more than 80% of the sectors to the F/O, so much so that the computerised rostering system often "red flags" me that it's time to do a sector for currency.
With 27,500 hours and 30,000+ sectors in my log book over 43 years, I do my damndest to allow my F/Os to accumulate as much experience as possible. Most of them are ex-cadets, with less than 10% of my experience. Having said that, I absolutely reserve the right to operate any sector that I wish, after considering the operational circumstances and difficulty of the sector. I would be very remiss as a Captain if I pushed a F/O to or beyond his/her limits of competance, confidence, and ability.
I've worked for two major airlines. The first followed the 50/50 norm, with the Captain reserving the right to resume control at any time. The second (current) airline also encourages equal share of flying, but spells it out in black and white when a Captain MAY NOT award a sector to a F/O. To protect my own job, I follow these limits, but use a little "slack" with experienced and senior F/Os to give them experience in difficult conditions. This is accompanied by a briefing to loudly voice any discomfort that they may have, and that there's no loss of face if I regain control in these circumstances.
I don't fly with F/Os, I only fly with Deputy Captains, because that is the F/O's primary role, and brief them as such. On the rare occasion that I fly with a F/O who is obviously not in "Deputy Captain" mode, I'll do ALL of the sectors, and he can do the paperwork until the cows come home.
A final word - Take it easy on the new inexperienced Captains. They may be operating at their own limits of confidence, and don't yet have the experience to intervene for a situation going wrong in the same timely manner as the Old Timers can.
Regards,
Old Smokey
I think that you must work for a pretty good airline COLTFLYBOY, I would NOT find it acceptable, as a Captain, to be obliged, as a matter of company policy, to give 50% of the flying to the F/O.
Before anyone adds me to their "bad guy" list, I give away more than 80% of the sectors to the F/O, so much so that the computerised rostering system often "red flags" me that it's time to do a sector for currency.
With 27,500 hours and 30,000+ sectors in my log book over 43 years, I do my damndest to allow my F/Os to accumulate as much experience as possible. Most of them are ex-cadets, with less than 10% of my experience. Having said that, I absolutely reserve the right to operate any sector that I wish, after considering the operational circumstances and difficulty of the sector. I would be very remiss as a Captain if I pushed a F/O to or beyond his/her limits of competance, confidence, and ability.
I've worked for two major airlines. The first followed the 50/50 norm, with the Captain reserving the right to resume control at any time. The second (current) airline also encourages equal share of flying, but spells it out in black and white when a Captain MAY NOT award a sector to a F/O. To protect my own job, I follow these limits, but use a little "slack" with experienced and senior F/Os to give them experience in difficult conditions. This is accompanied by a briefing to loudly voice any discomfort that they may have, and that there's no loss of face if I regain control in these circumstances.
I don't fly with F/Os, I only fly with Deputy Captains, because that is the F/O's primary role, and brief them as such. On the rare occasion that I fly with a F/O who is obviously not in "Deputy Captain" mode, I'll do ALL of the sectors, and he can do the paperwork until the cows come home.
A final word - Take it easy on the new inexperienced Captains. They may be operating at their own limits of confidence, and don't yet have the experience to intervene for a situation going wrong in the same timely manner as the Old Timers can.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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...never flown a line sector....ever.......
“I compare that with some airlines... I just shall mention from Asia.
Some colleagues ended their career in Asia, after PanAm.
They told me, often they offered a sector to their F/O...
And the F/O to admit, that he had never flown a line sector... ever.”
Unbelievable……………………..I’m in shock! Can you imagine what Captain initial operating experience was like, first leg actually flown in years…….. Oh yeah baby, just the kind of pilot I want making a low visibility takeoff, a cross wing landing on a slick runway with the tail end of a typhoon blowing by or a demanding approach to minimums after a long haul! Mind-boggling.
Some colleagues ended their career in Asia, after PanAm.
They told me, often they offered a sector to their F/O...
And the F/O to admit, that he had never flown a line sector... ever.”
Unbelievable……………………..I’m in shock! Can you imagine what Captain initial operating experience was like, first leg actually flown in years…….. Oh yeah baby, just the kind of pilot I want making a low visibility takeoff, a cross wing landing on a slick runway with the tail end of a typhoon blowing by or a demanding approach to minimums after a long haul! Mind-boggling.
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50/50
Coltflyboy,
I fly for a short haul airline-737s. A typical day has 3 to 4 sectors. By policy the “deputy-Captain” (I like that – thanks Old Smokey) is prohibited from manipulating the controls during takeoff under certain environmental conditions. Interestingly the restrictions on landing are for the crew; with no special restrictions placed on deputy-Captain landings.
When the new pilot makes it to the line for day one of flying, they are fully qualified including Cat IIIa landings and will be given at least 50% of the sectors if not more. There are some “high minimums”, “special airport” and crew pairing additional requirements up until the pilot has 100 hours in their seat. But, it would be unusual for the deputy-Captain not to fly every other sector.
Typically we alternate sectors 50/50. And usually the Captain takes the first leg. None of that is written in stone. In all the years I was in the right seat I can’t think of a Captain that didn’t have me fly every other leg.
When the upgrade came; flying from the left seat was the easiest part of the experience. Looking back I have to laugh at myself because I could not “find” certain switches because I had been so accustomed to using the other hand from the right seat.
I fly for a short haul airline-737s. A typical day has 3 to 4 sectors. By policy the “deputy-Captain” (I like that – thanks Old Smokey) is prohibited from manipulating the controls during takeoff under certain environmental conditions. Interestingly the restrictions on landing are for the crew; with no special restrictions placed on deputy-Captain landings.
When the new pilot makes it to the line for day one of flying, they are fully qualified including Cat IIIa landings and will be given at least 50% of the sectors if not more. There are some “high minimums”, “special airport” and crew pairing additional requirements up until the pilot has 100 hours in their seat. But, it would be unusual for the deputy-Captain not to fly every other sector.
Typically we alternate sectors 50/50. And usually the Captain takes the first leg. None of that is written in stone. In all the years I was in the right seat I can’t think of a Captain that didn’t have me fly every other leg.
When the upgrade came; flying from the left seat was the easiest part of the experience. Looking back I have to laugh at myself because I could not “find” certain switches because I had been so accustomed to using the other hand from the right seat.
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If I am line training the FO gets 3 sectors handling, and 4 landings, subject to how tired he is. He can learn the ideal scribbling techniques by observation but needs the handling, take offs and landings, and handy tips is on operating the airplane, hence he gets the sectors.
Line FOs get 50/50 unless they
up an approach or landing when they get more and instruction on remedying the problem.
Guys who are on course to Captain upgrade get the chance to make all the decisions under supervision, otherwise they don't progress.
The role of the "old fart" is to give the "young buck" the benefit of his experience: the "young buck" has to take the best bits of everyone's advice and distill it to produce a better way of operating.
In turn the "young buck" will become the "old fart" and circle joins up.
Line FOs get 50/50 unless they
up an approach or landing when they get more and instruction on remedying the problem.Guys who are on course to Captain upgrade get the chance to make all the decisions under supervision, otherwise they don't progress.
The role of the "old fart" is to give the "young buck" the benefit of his experience: the "young buck" has to take the best bits of everyone's advice and distill it to produce a better way of operating.
In turn the "young buck" will become the "old fart" and circle joins up.
Buttonpusher
When I was captain, obviously, the selection of sector was my decision.
With all due respect BelArg, it seems these days with some F/O's (not all) it's really not that obvious after all !!
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Like it or not, there might be a recommendation how to split the flying - not more. It's the Captains decission and will always be, that's because he carries the responsebility and you can't take that from him even though a lot of FO's those days think they have a certain right to demand "their" sectors.
I give two away when we have three normally by the way.
I give two away when we have three normally by the way.
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Deputy Captain is nice, we used to say we hire captains-in-training, pretty much the same thing. Anyway, take offs below 400m RVR and CAT II/III approaches are not allowed from the right side so that is allways the captains duty, everything else should be shared equally and i've never had any argument about how many sectors to fly with any captains. It is of course allways the captains final decision, but most of them happily delegate it to their deputy captains.
We usually do 3 or 4 sectors a day shorthaul W-pattern style, so flying every other leg would lead to one allways landing at the homebase, most of the time one flies the first and last sector and the other one the two sectors in between, but of course sometimes one does the first two and the other the last.
We usually do 3 or 4 sectors a day shorthaul W-pattern style, so flying every other leg would lead to one allways landing at the homebase, most of the time one flies the first and last sector and the other one the two sectors in between, but of course sometimes one does the first two and the other the last.
Well put, OS. I learned long ago, as an AF instructor, there are two times the Captain should absolutely be handling the plane, one, when the F/O will be operating at his limits under the circumstances and wouldn't learn anything having the Captain giving continuous direction and, two, when the situation is approaching the Captain's limits.
GF
GF
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When the co-pilot (because that is what they actually are) gets pushy...gear up and shut up, works for me.
And, an immediate report goes to the head shed.
Termination for said malcontent co-pilot in these cases cannot be far behind....IE: been known to happen with some regularity....
And, an immediate report goes to the head shed.
Termination for said malcontent co-pilot in these cases cannot be far behind....IE: been known to happen with some regularity....
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Old smokey and slim shady, I am more than encouraged to continue in my chosen career in flying by your words.
411A, I hope, though I suspect not, that your attitude is tongue in cheek. Although CRM is not, as has been well discussed, a buzzword for relieving the captain of command, it was originally designed to remove the attitude of the scared co pilot and to prevent him from keeping tight shut when you are trying to kill him, as very occasionally can and has happened. I suspect your understanding of this would put someone like me right back in Tenerife all those years ago. Gear up, shut up. What?
411A, I hope, though I suspect not, that your attitude is tongue in cheek. Although CRM is not, as has been well discussed, a buzzword for relieving the captain of command, it was originally designed to remove the attitude of the scared co pilot and to prevent him from keeping tight shut when you are trying to kill him, as very occasionally can and has happened. I suspect your understanding of this would put someone like me right back in Tenerife all those years ago. Gear up, shut up. What?
