Why pilots on almost every crash?
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Why pilots on almost every crash?
I was just wondering on this last flight with Turkish Airlines that crashed at Amsterdam and many other crashes before. How come there is no visual mark on the body of the plane being damaged (the cokpit part) yet all of the cockpit occupants are dead? Is it the impact factor or what?
And on lots of these crashes the pilots are dead so they can not comment about their flight.Blunt trauma is one of the things we have to consider.
Take a look at this site and i can not believe that the crew died...the cockpit looks almost untouched
Pilots among 9 killed in crash of Turkish flight at Amsterdam airport
And on lots of these crashes the pilots are dead so they can not comment about their flight.Blunt trauma is one of the things we have to consider.
Take a look at this site and i can not believe that the crew died...the cockpit looks almost untouched
Pilots among 9 killed in crash of Turkish flight at Amsterdam airport
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Do you see that "stuff" sticking up through the roof in that photo? That's most likely an interior partition that was pushed up through the roof. That means the frame of the 737 was crushed under that area and the cabin floor was pushed up toward the ceiling. I can only imagine what it must look like inside that jet.
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Google is your friend
Do a google search on "Deceleration Injuries"
These are just ONE factor that may end the life of someone in an aircraft accident.
So even if the pilot is unharmed by flying debris or blunt trauma, they can die from deceleration; The brain could be pressed against the front of the skull, and/or internal organs can shear move and shear off from where they were meant to be.
Deceleration at the front of the aircraft is often more than at the rear, as the aircraft can buckle and compress during the impact sequence.
DIVOSH!
These are just ONE factor that may end the life of someone in an aircraft accident.
So even if the pilot is unharmed by flying debris or blunt trauma, they can die from deceleration; The brain could be pressed against the front of the skull, and/or internal organs can shear move and shear off from where they were meant to be.
Deceleration at the front of the aircraft is often more than at the rear, as the aircraft can buckle and compress during the impact sequence.
DIVOSH!
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I seem to remember seeing on the video how the fire crew hacked the hole in the cockpit roof, possibly to try to gain access.
The comments on the effects of rapid deceleration on the human body are, unfortunately, all too true.
The inability of the rescuers to access the flight deck may well be of no consequence in this accident, but it does concern me if the crew had been still alive, unable to open the DV windows and been in urgent need of medical attention. Would the "strengthened" flight deck door have prevented this?
The comments on the effects of rapid deceleration on the human body are, unfortunately, all too true.
The inability of the rescuers to access the flight deck may well be of no consequence in this accident, but it does concern me if the crew had been still alive, unable to open the DV windows and been in urgent need of medical attention. Would the "strengthened" flight deck door have prevented this?
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This is exactly what some witnesses have been saying, apparently:
Schiphol crash pilot's death draws cockpit door scrutiny
I doubt anything will come of it though -there's no substantial evidence yet that would lead anyone to think that it was either entirely or mostly to blame for the death of the flight crew - I think, unfortunatly, it would take a great deal more accidents with a similar outcome and the positive identification of the flight-deck door as being part of the problem before anyone starts to take any notice.
FF
Schiphol crash pilot's death draws cockpit door scrutiny
I doubt anything will come of it though -there's no substantial evidence yet that would lead anyone to think that it was either entirely or mostly to blame for the death of the flight crew - I think, unfortunatly, it would take a great deal more accidents with a similar outcome and the positive identification of the flight-deck door as being part of the problem before anyone starts to take any notice.
FF
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Cockpit door
The concern about assistance to flight crews in case of accident was raised by flight crews, back in late 2001, when "secure" cockpit doors became mandated by regulations. At the time I was flying 747-200s, which have a escape hatch on top of the cockpit ceiling, which can be opened from the outside, so it was less of a concern for that type of aircraft. These airplanes got the "secure" cockpit door retrofit.
xxx
Eventually, our 747-200s got replaced by 747-400s (which I did not fly) so our 200 types were merely "reserve" or "charter" airplanes. Eventually the last 200 got retired, and I retired myself.
xxx
With the 200s, we probably hardly ever locked the cockpit door. First of all, on the upper deck, we only had 16 seats, and most often was used by the CC as their "private quarters" to puff a cigarette or take a break. The only time we had passengers there were some selected VVIPs, or if we had a full cabin, which was extremely rare. Access to the upper deck airstairs was "off limits" from regular passengers anyway.
xxx
Now, pilots are all "safe" from Osama buddies, but condemned to be victims in case of accidents. Who knows, maybe these THY pilots were still alive after the impact. Cockpit door jammed, sliding cockpit windows jammed, all that does not surprise me the least. After all, we pilots are generally "first to arrive on the site of the crash". Sad fact.
xxx
Among our company procedures (evacuation), our CC are specifically instructed, after initiating passenger evacuation, to assist the flight crew, if they do not appear safely out of the cockpit door.
xxx
If I was still active in the airline industry, I would impress on having flight crews opening the cockpit door as item on the "LANDING CHECK". Fact is, terrorists always attacked airplane crews quite early on the flight, with their demands for other destinations, knowing that tanks are full. An airplane left with 45 minutes of fuel, is of no interest to them. An open door would present a problem for takeoff, but much less at time of landing.
xxx
I am aware that Turkey has problems with their Kurd minorities, but I am certain that their airports security is outstanding. Sorry to displease our friend Rainboe with my own condolences for the THY crews and victims. I flew a brief B-720 ACMI contract based in Erçan (KTHY - Kibris Türk Hava Yollari) in 1978 and always respected the professionalism of the Turkish pilots and staff that I met during that period of time.
xxx
Happy contrails, if I may say as usual.
xxx
Eventually, our 747-200s got replaced by 747-400s (which I did not fly) so our 200 types were merely "reserve" or "charter" airplanes. Eventually the last 200 got retired, and I retired myself.
xxx
With the 200s, we probably hardly ever locked the cockpit door. First of all, on the upper deck, we only had 16 seats, and most often was used by the CC as their "private quarters" to puff a cigarette or take a break. The only time we had passengers there were some selected VVIPs, or if we had a full cabin, which was extremely rare. Access to the upper deck airstairs was "off limits" from regular passengers anyway.
xxx
Now, pilots are all "safe" from Osama buddies, but condemned to be victims in case of accidents. Who knows, maybe these THY pilots were still alive after the impact. Cockpit door jammed, sliding cockpit windows jammed, all that does not surprise me the least. After all, we pilots are generally "first to arrive on the site of the crash". Sad fact.
xxx
Among our company procedures (evacuation), our CC are specifically instructed, after initiating passenger evacuation, to assist the flight crew, if they do not appear safely out of the cockpit door.
xxx
If I was still active in the airline industry, I would impress on having flight crews opening the cockpit door as item on the "LANDING CHECK". Fact is, terrorists always attacked airplane crews quite early on the flight, with their demands for other destinations, knowing that tanks are full. An airplane left with 45 minutes of fuel, is of no interest to them. An open door would present a problem for takeoff, but much less at time of landing.
xxx
I am aware that Turkey has problems with their Kurd minorities, but I am certain that their airports security is outstanding. Sorry to displease our friend Rainboe with my own condolences for the THY crews and victims. I flew a brief B-720 ACMI contract based in Erçan (KTHY - Kibris Türk Hava Yollari) in 1978 and always respected the professionalism of the Turkish pilots and staff that I met during that period of time.
xxx
Happy contrails, if I may say as usual.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Sorry BelArg, you cannot be serious! Open the FD door in the Landing checklist! You open a chink in the armour and that is when they will strike. Won't work! Because the seat belt sign is on doesn't mean that will not be the time to launch an attack!
Why do you feel you need to make public your private condolences? It is your personal religion and sympathetic feelings- they belong privately, not being made public to a lot of people who really don't want them thrust in their face, with religious RIPs some may find objectionable. It is not what people come here for or to read! If the BBC dosn't do it, why should you do it here? Have a private drink on them.
Why do you feel you need to make public your private condolences? It is your personal religion and sympathetic feelings- they belong privately, not being made public to a lot of people who really don't want them thrust in their face, with religious RIPs some may find objectionable. It is not what people come here for or to read! If the BBC dosn't do it, why should you do it here? Have a private drink on them.
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Condolences
Rainboe = Take a look at Airliners.net !
They lost their General manager Paulo Emanuele in an aviation accident on the 28th january this year and have created an amazing page dedicated to to the guy's memory .
It has photographs of this guy doing what he obviously adored in life flying and he was a professional pilot .
I can't imagine anyone who uses that particular website complaining about the dedications to a fallen comrade .
So whats your problem ?
Why are you so incensed if your fellow professionals posting on Pprune leave their condolences or end the posts with a R.I.P ?
Its just a mark of respect for a fellow aviator who has died mate .
They lost their General manager Paulo Emanuele in an aviation accident on the 28th january this year and have created an amazing page dedicated to to the guy's memory .
It has photographs of this guy doing what he obviously adored in life flying and he was a professional pilot .
I can't imagine anyone who uses that particular website complaining about the dedications to a fallen comrade .
So whats your problem ?
Why are you so incensed if your fellow professionals posting on Pprune leave their condolences or end the posts with a R.I.P ?
Its just a mark of respect for a fellow aviator who has died mate .
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"I seem to remember seeing on the video how the fire crew hacked the hole in the cockpit roof, possibly to try to gain access."
Here's a link to another photo, from a different angle, that shows what, to me, looks like something from inside punched through the roof.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...hschiphol2.jpg
Here's a link to another photo, from a different angle, that shows what, to me, looks like something from inside punched through the roof.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...hschiphol2.jpg
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RaInboe
I am dead serious about the door opening for landing, as an alternate consideration. Saving lives in my first consideration, for airline accidents.
xxx
In this area of South America, anyway, we do not have the same level of concern about airline terrorism as the one enjoyed in your Crown Territories and other Anglo-Saxon nations. We also have other means of protection, safety or defence which I cannot disclose.
xxx
Further, I would doubt that Osama would elect to book an "all inclusive" charter flight R/T tour in a "bucket shop" around Newcastle, for a vacation in Alicante. You, fly your airplane and do as you please. I am retired and frankly, dear, after reading your words, I see the type of person you are, I do not give a damn about your opinions.
xxx
Finally, expressing condolences is a sensible way to express our feelings of regrets for loss of life, especially airline crewmembers. I am above the class of person you are. My religion is my concern, if applicable, not yours. Even in atheist societies, condolences are conveyed when applicable.
xxx
You are not a Pprune constable. If you wish to police my opinions and my respect for others, I suggest you offer your services as moderator, since you obviously spend probably more hours typing on this website, than flying your kite. And... get a life.
xxx
Somewhere... over the rainbo-w...
Happy contrails flow...
xxx
In this area of South America, anyway, we do not have the same level of concern about airline terrorism as the one enjoyed in your Crown Territories and other Anglo-Saxon nations. We also have other means of protection, safety or defence which I cannot disclose.
xxx
Further, I would doubt that Osama would elect to book an "all inclusive" charter flight R/T tour in a "bucket shop" around Newcastle, for a vacation in Alicante. You, fly your airplane and do as you please. I am retired and frankly, dear, after reading your words, I see the type of person you are, I do not give a damn about your opinions.
xxx
Finally, expressing condolences is a sensible way to express our feelings of regrets for loss of life, especially airline crewmembers. I am above the class of person you are. My religion is my concern, if applicable, not yours. Even in atheist societies, condolences are conveyed when applicable.
xxx
You are not a Pprune constable. If you wish to police my opinions and my respect for others, I suggest you offer your services as moderator, since you obviously spend probably more hours typing on this website, than flying your kite. And... get a life.
xxx
Somewhere... over the rainbo-w...
Happy contrails flow...
How about "unlock FD door" as part of specific emergency checklists, (rather than routine landings)? Could be a CC function prior to strapping themselves in?
You'd have to be one daft terrorist to hijack an aircraft which is on its way down anyway...
You'd have to be one daft terrorist to hijack an aircraft which is on its way down anyway...
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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In this area of South America, anyway, we do not have the same level of concern about airline terrorism as the one enjoyed in your Crown Territories and other Anglo-Saxon nations.
The rest of your posting doesn't really do justice to you, so no response there! Enjoy your retirement.
As for airliners.net, he was the boss and it is an enormous event. I lose friends and colleagues occsionally from flying- I give them a private salute, I don't need to make public my grieving, but then that's the Anglo Saxon way. Whilst you respect your religion, I find it illogical and the cause of more deaths than we'd like to think about. Not everybody believes in it and you should respect some atheists find it objectionable being thrust in their face all the time in a technical thread. I want to discuss technical issues, not personalities or how they died as too many here seem to get off on discussing!
Er.....like this very thread!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Unfortunately (737) there is no way to have the door 'open' that it will not either jam in such a crash as the AMS crash or slam shut on a normal landing and scare the bezeezus out of me. I think most Captains will ensure the door is not electrically 'locked' in the last stages of an emergency landing, but there is no real facility to keep it safely open. A really hard, unexpected 'arrival' on terra firma where it distorts will probably jam it shut - that is a fact of life we face post 9/11, right or wrong. In the days of manual deadbolts immediately post 9/11 it was not unusual to brief unlocking the door late on following an emergency.
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Funny enough, nearly all corporate jets that have a solid cockpit door have a placard stating "DOOR TO BE OPEN ON TAKEOFF AND LANDING".
The theory behind this is to assure that the door will not jam in case of an accident. Which is rather silly to me, as most cockpit doors in corporate jets are made out of very thin materials covered with thin wooden veneerer. Shoot, you can just lean against a door and it will open. The vast majority of corporate jets just have a cloth curtain to separate the cockpit from the cabin.
The theory behind this is to assure that the door will not jam in case of an accident. Which is rather silly to me, as most cockpit doors in corporate jets are made out of very thin materials covered with thin wooden veneerer. Shoot, you can just lean against a door and it will open. The vast majority of corporate jets just have a cloth curtain to separate the cockpit from the cabin.
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A doctor told me that when very rapid vertical deceleration takes place it is not unusual for the heart to rupture and detach from the various veins and arteries which is fatal.
