Legal Question
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Legal Question
Now i think i already know the answer to this (and have done a search mods)but would appreciated being pointed towards some reference material.
The Question
Is it illegal for an airline to transport a person who has committed a criminal act for which he/she had not been arrested and charged out of that country to another country. Furthermore if airline crew members knew about the criminal act would that have any further implications (ie they didn't report it)?
My thought is certainly yes to both but cannot find anything on the ICAO website or google referring to this. Any help would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
The Question
Is it illegal for an airline to transport a person who has committed a criminal act for which he/she had not been arrested and charged out of that country to another country. Furthermore if airline crew members knew about the criminal act would that have any further implications (ie they didn't report it)?
My thought is certainly yes to both but cannot find anything on the ICAO website or google referring to this. Any help would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Last edited by Smeagels Boyfriend; 25th Jan 2009 at 04:50.
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Not aware of any aviation or airline legislation i.e. FAA, ICAO, IATA regarding transportation of criminals. Besides, some people can be considered criminals in one jurisdiction, and not in others... Yes, a few times I had prisoners on board, escorted by police... and also had people deported from a country back to their country of origin... some also escorted by police.
xxx
As far as I am concerned, it is a legal problem which could be imposed on any given airline in any given country, but as pilot, I had enough other aviation rules to observe and be concerned about, to further worry about this.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
As far as I am concerned, it is a legal problem which could be imposed on any given airline in any given country, but as pilot, I had enough other aviation rules to observe and be concerned about, to further worry about this.
xxx
Happy contrails
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A little (understandably) circumspect in your original post sb, but I would suggest that until the country concerned finds out the crew 'knew' there are no problems. When/if they do I would imagine any of the crew could be vulnerable to arrest on entry to said country and charged with something like 'aiding and abetting'?
That's a lay person's interpretation (thus free
)
That's a lay person's interpretation (thus free
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Thanks BOAC
Do you take Visa or Mastercard?
I was thinking more along the lines of ICAO or IATA regulations regarding the carriage of an alleged criminal to evade arrest.
Do you take Visa or Mastercard?
I was thinking more along the lines of ICAO or IATA regulations regarding the carriage of an alleged criminal to evade arrest.
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Is it illegal for an airline to transport a person who has committed a criminal act for which he/she had not been arrested and charged
Unless of course you witnessed said criminal act then it might not be quite so straight forward.
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The statement still stands...If the people transporting the individual are not witnesses then where's the culpability ? If the due process of law has not been excercised how is one to know who's a criminal and who's not ?
I'm sure if the crew were fully cognisant then regardless of whether the individual had been subject to legal intervention or not they would have at least spoken to Ops ! Unless of course your implying it was the companies intention to transport the individual in the full knowledge of what had transpired.
This wasn't in a Sandy place was it ?
I'm sure if the crew were fully cognisant then regardless of whether the individual had been subject to legal intervention or not they would have at least spoken to Ops ! Unless of course your implying it was the companies intention to transport the individual in the full knowledge of what had transpired.
This wasn't in a Sandy place was it ?
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Yep, heard the story twice now and it's amazing really, what sort of crew are airlines employing? Theres always two sides to a story, you know the other side?
Good point it's not a criminal act unless trial conviction etc etc.
Good point it's not a criminal act unless trial conviction etc etc.
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Well, considering that at least one airline could possibly have been accused of aiding and abetting in a case involving the sons of a certain African country's ambassador, and that not having been followed up by a certain police force in this country (although I recall that the African country recalled the ambassador and replaced him), it is safe to say that the presumption is that a person is innocent until proven guilty, unless one or more members of the flight crew of the flight in question were witnesses to the act and in that case would be actively aiding and abetting.
So, I'd venture to say that the crew of a flight that facilitated a person of interest's departure from said country, is safe in that they were not to know that said SLF was a person of interest. The caveat there is that they didn't know, so if they did see something about this SLF on telly, uniformed persons making statements in the press or something, then it may become tricky, but again here the burden is on the authorities to prove that the flight crew knew.
S.
So, I'd venture to say that the crew of a flight that facilitated a person of interest's departure from said country, is safe in that they were not to know that said SLF was a person of interest. The caveat there is that they didn't know, so if they did see something about this SLF on telly, uniformed persons making statements in the press or something, then it may become tricky, but again here the burden is on the authorities to prove that the flight crew knew.
S.
Two issues here IMHO...
1) Was the person convicted of an offence? ie are they actually a criminal on the run? or merely suspected of committing an offence?
2) Is the Airline a nominated body, ie are they required by law to intervene in a convicted persons attempt to flight? (I doubt they would be required to act in the event of a suspect boarding...)
My own feelings on this are that if the individual hasn't been convicted of an offence then they're quite entitled to travel. Even if they had been convicted, its unreasonable to expect airlines to be policing this issue...
More to the point, I get the feeling that we're not being told the full story here...
1) Was the person convicted of an offence? ie are they actually a criminal on the run? or merely suspected of committing an offence?
2) Is the Airline a nominated body, ie are they required by law to intervene in a convicted persons attempt to flight? (I doubt they would be required to act in the event of a suspect boarding...)
My own feelings on this are that if the individual hasn't been convicted of an offence then they're quite entitled to travel. Even if they had been convicted, its unreasonable to expect airlines to be policing this issue...
More to the point, I get the feeling that we're not being told the full story here...
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I think people are neing alittle too specific in discussing the whole "innocent until proven guilty" aspect.
If someone has a warrant issued for them, and despite knowing of the warrant you assist them in evading that warrant being executed, I think you'd be in hot water - even if they were later deemed innocent. I imagine you could be done for some variant of obstruction of justice and/or contempt of court.
Certainly I wouldn't like to rely on the "I knew there was a warrant but he hadn't been found guilty yet" defence....
If someone has a warrant issued for them, and despite knowing of the warrant you assist them in evading that warrant being executed, I think you'd be in hot water - even if they were later deemed innocent. I imagine you could be done for some variant of obstruction of justice and/or contempt of court.
Certainly I wouldn't like to rely on the "I knew there was a warrant but he hadn't been found guilty yet" defence....
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Mad, but you wouldn't expect a flight crew to ask every passenger: "Do you per chance have an arrest warrant outstanding?"
Also, persons of interest don't necessarily have a warrant of arrest outstanding on them, but their flight from the country in question might be viewed in a dim light in the line of "don't leave town for a while" if they do end up getting on a plane to "get the hell out of Dodge" so to speak.
So as far as a flight crew is concerned, a judge/prosecutor would be hard-pushed to prove that they knew the person in question was told not to leave town, or had a warrant outstanding.
S.
Also, persons of interest don't necessarily have a warrant of arrest outstanding on them, but their flight from the country in question might be viewed in a dim light in the line of "don't leave town for a while" if they do end up getting on a plane to "get the hell out of Dodge" so to speak.
So as far as a flight crew is concerned, a judge/prosecutor would be hard-pushed to prove that they knew the person in question was told not to leave town, or had a warrant outstanding.
S.
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I was thinking more along the lines of ICAO or IATA regulations regarding the carriage of an alleged criminal to evade arrest.
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This is not catered for by any IATA/ICAO rules.
Knowingly transporting a fugitive in order for them to evade/escape justice could amount to an offence under the law of the country in question, but there would have to be knowledge and intent on the part of the crew.
Possible offences in the UK might be assisting an offender or acts intended and tending to pervert the course of justice but would very much depend upon the facts of the case.
As an example, IIRC the pilot who flew Asil Nadir out the UK in a light aircraft shortly before his trial was convicted of perverting the course of justice. On the other hand the ferry company that transported a defendant I prosecuted last week to France the day before his trial would not have been aware of what he was doing and would not be prosecuted. [He was convicted of rape in his absence and sentenced to 13 years so I suppose its unlikely he'll be back in a hurry]
Knowingly transporting a fugitive in order for them to evade/escape justice could amount to an offence under the law of the country in question, but there would have to be knowledge and intent on the part of the crew.
Possible offences in the UK might be assisting an offender or acts intended and tending to pervert the course of justice but would very much depend upon the facts of the case.
As an example, IIRC the pilot who flew Asil Nadir out the UK in a light aircraft shortly before his trial was convicted of perverting the course of justice. On the other hand the ferry company that transported a defendant I prosecuted last week to France the day before his trial would not have been aware of what he was doing and would not be prosecuted. [He was convicted of rape in his absence and sentenced to 13 years so I suppose its unlikely he'll be back in a hurry]
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This is Article 13.
Entry and clearance regulations
The laws and regulations of a contracting State as to the
admission to or departure from its territory of passengers, crew
or cargo of aircraft, such as regulations relating to entry,
clearance, immigration, passports, customs, and quarantine
shall be complied with by or on behalf of such passengers,
crew or cargo upon entrance into or departure from, or while
within the territory of that State.
Anyone speak English (no offence legal approach)
Entry and clearance regulations
The laws and regulations of a contracting State as to the
admission to or departure from its territory of passengers, crew
or cargo of aircraft, such as regulations relating to entry,
clearance, immigration, passports, customs, and quarantine
shall be complied with by or on behalf of such passengers,
crew or cargo upon entrance into or departure from, or while
within the territory of that State.
Anyone speak English (no offence legal approach)
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Yes, but the regulations do not relate to this situation nor does the law relating to "admission to or departure from its territory of passengers, crew
or cargo of aircraft, such as regulations relating to entry,
clearance, immigration, passports, customs, and quarantine
shall be complied with by or on behalf of such passengers".
The criminal law is a separate matter and does not relate directly to "the admission departure etc" It relates to "perverting the course of justice".
If you flew a fugitive without a proper passport where the regulations required one you might be in breach of article 13 but, where the fugitive complied with the passport requirements, the fact that he had committed an offence within the UK or was even wanted by the UK authorities would not put you in breach of article 13. It might however constitute a different offence under UK criminal law.
There is nothing in UK immigration law that prevents a person who has committed a criminal offence or, for that matter, is wanted by the police for questioning from leaving the UK.
or cargo of aircraft, such as regulations relating to entry,
clearance, immigration, passports, customs, and quarantine
shall be complied with by or on behalf of such passengers".
The criminal law is a separate matter and does not relate directly to "the admission departure etc" It relates to "perverting the course of justice".
If you flew a fugitive without a proper passport where the regulations required one you might be in breach of article 13 but, where the fugitive complied with the passport requirements, the fact that he had committed an offence within the UK or was even wanted by the UK authorities would not put you in breach of article 13. It might however constitute a different offence under UK criminal law.
There is nothing in UK immigration law that prevents a person who has committed a criminal offence or, for that matter, is wanted by the police for questioning from leaving the UK.
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If you look up the name Bernard Haddican (d.) you may find court records that provide some answers.
He had some form in the matter of carrying people and things the authorities were twitchy about into and away from the UK's shores. Quite unknowingly, of course.
He had some form in the matter of carrying people and things the authorities were twitchy about into and away from the UK's shores. Quite unknowingly, of course.
