KLM Pilot's English Proficiency
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KLM Pilot's English Proficiency
My impression, being a non-native speaker myself, is that many KLM pilots speak English very well (far better than I do). When I hear some of them on the radio I sometimes do not even recognise an accent at all. The truth is, however, that until a few years ago I could not even distinguish a Scot from an Irishman by their accents. You will certainly agree that this does not qualify my in any way to judge other people's accents.
So, my question for you native speakers is: Is it true KLM pilots usually are very English proficient? And if so, why is that? My impression is that, compared to many of my fellow countrymen (zee Germans), they put more effort on a correct pronunciation.
And of course I would like to invite everybody flying for KLM to share your thoughts about my question. Is there anything particular that your company does to ensure pilots speak proper English, e. g. classes or tuition, testing applicants in the first place, or any incentives?
So, my question for you native speakers is: Is it true KLM pilots usually are very English proficient? And if so, why is that? My impression is that, compared to many of my fellow countrymen (zee Germans), they put more effort on a correct pronunciation.
And of course I would like to invite everybody flying for KLM to share your thoughts about my question. Is there anything particular that your company does to ensure pilots speak proper English, e. g. classes or tuition, testing applicants in the first place, or any incentives?
Last edited by hvogt; 6th Nov 2008 at 15:03. Reason: spelling
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As a natvie English speaker, and one who only speaks English, it is with wild admiration when I listen to some nationalities over the airwaves. The Dutch are particularly outstanding as are the Germans, most of the Scandanavians, Swiss and Austrians. I am led to believe that the penetration of English televisions with out dubbing and with local language subtitles plays a role in this. Italians Spanish and French watch TV in the local languages and I believe this plays the biggest role.
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I don't have any statistics, but you are certainly right, that Dutch people seem to have not only a high usage of English as a second language, but also an almost flawless degree of fluency in many cases.
In the UK airline I fly for, we have a large number of Dutch nationals excercising their (Treaty of Rome) right to work, and in many cases it is difficult to believe that English is not their mother tongue.
I don't know if it is a reflection of the education system in the Netherlands, or simply that Dutch parents impart a very high level of importance to the learning of English to their offspring, but whatever the case I am convinced it gives Dutch pilots a significant advantage in the European job market and undoubtably in the world market as well.
In the UK airline I fly for, we have a large number of Dutch nationals excercising their (Treaty of Rome) right to work, and in many cases it is difficult to believe that English is not their mother tongue.
I don't know if it is a reflection of the education system in the Netherlands, or simply that Dutch parents impart a very high level of importance to the learning of English to their offspring, but whatever the case I am convinced it gives Dutch pilots a significant advantage in the European job market and undoubtably in the world market as well.
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The vast majority of Dutch people I have encountered speak flawless English
which why I was suprised when I read there was some criticism of the command of English by the Dutch crew of the KLM aircraft in the Tenerife disaster.
which why I was suprised when I read there was some criticism of the command of English by the Dutch crew of the KLM aircraft in the Tenerife disaster.
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Was chatting with a Dutch guy just a few weeks ago and the subject of his (and his countrymen's) English skills came up. Although tounge-in-cheek, his comment was "Well how much use is Dutch going to be outside the Netherlands".
I gather also that the education system has put a great emphasis on English skills for many years. I don't know how long this has been the case but we have to keep in mind that the Los Rodeos accident happened over 30 years ago. That's a generation and a half - a lot changes in that time.
I gather also that the education system has put a great emphasis on English skills for many years. I don't know how long this has been the case but we have to keep in mind that the Los Rodeos accident happened over 30 years ago. That's a generation and a half - a lot changes in that time.
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Good afternoon all,
The aforementioned ability is the result of multiple factors;
-Education; a lot of emphasis on foreign languages (country´s international character and focus)
-Foreign media; e.g. foreign movies with Dutch subtitles.
During the selection procedure at KLM, attention is being payed to one´s English proficiency (part of candidate´s overall appearance)
Correct usage of R/T is also "monitored" during simulator sessions.
kind regards,
NB
The aforementioned ability is the result of multiple factors;
-Education; a lot of emphasis on foreign languages (country´s international character and focus)
-Foreign media; e.g. foreign movies with Dutch subtitles.
During the selection procedure at KLM, attention is being payed to one´s English proficiency (part of candidate´s overall appearance)
Correct usage of R/T is also "monitored" during simulator sessions.
kind regards,
NB
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Dutch and the English language
Definitely - the Dutch (call them KLM or other companies) do speak excellent English. Fact is, most Dutch people, even outside aviation/airlines are all highly proficient with English, as it is their "2nd language" in schools. Do not forget the fact that the Dutch language is close to the English language.
xxx
I am a native of Brussels, and Dutch was my 2nd language when I was a kid in school, as I grew up with the French language. One thing I am mad at with my Dutch friends, when I visit them, I want to practice my Dutch (Flemish dialect in reality) each time I am in Amsterdam or Maastricht, as I have so few opportunities to speak it, but they immediately will switch to English with me. They probably do not like my accent... Sorry, I am rusty.
xxx
Dutch people (and let me include the Flemish people) have top reputation for translators/interpreters positions in multilingual Europe. The average Dutch is proficient besides English, with some German and French, add sometimes even another language, often Spanish, Portuguese or Italian, as they love to visit these areas for their vacations.
xxx
Funny anecdote, from Sabena many years ago. An acquaintance of mine, had applied for a job with the Belgian airline as flight attendant. She was proficient with French, English, German (and maybe another) but was weak in Dutch (a requirement in Belgium). She failed her Dutch language aptitude test. A while later, she did apply for a job with KLM and got hired. She was told "do not worry too much about speaking Dutch with KLM, we appreciate your proficiency in English, French and German as most of our passengers speak English anyway, we know your Dutch will get better with practice".
xxx
So, for me, "als mijn vrienden uit Den Haag" do not let me practice, I have had a few rare opportunities to speak Dutch, in Capetown or Johannesburg, and figure road signs in Afrikaans... Besides, my Dutch has helped me at times to figure what the "Scandi-hooligans" say when sipping a beer in Copenhagen or Oslo...
xxx
Fact is, I surprise Dutch/Flemish tourists in Buenos Aires or Brazil when they ask me where to go to get dinner. There is even a Dutch town with windmills and tulips in Brazil... even wooden shoes.
xxx
To the few of you seeking a job with KLM, and concerned about settling in the Netherlands, do not be too worried about not speaking Dutch. Your English is understood, and the Dutch are great people.
xxx
And Grolsch is "een lekker bier" (I hate Heineken...) -
Happy contrails
P.S. Hoe kan ik "happy contrails" zeggen in het Nederlands, a.u.b.?
xxx
I am a native of Brussels, and Dutch was my 2nd language when I was a kid in school, as I grew up with the French language. One thing I am mad at with my Dutch friends, when I visit them, I want to practice my Dutch (Flemish dialect in reality) each time I am in Amsterdam or Maastricht, as I have so few opportunities to speak it, but they immediately will switch to English with me. They probably do not like my accent... Sorry, I am rusty.
xxx
Dutch people (and let me include the Flemish people) have top reputation for translators/interpreters positions in multilingual Europe. The average Dutch is proficient besides English, with some German and French, add sometimes even another language, often Spanish, Portuguese or Italian, as they love to visit these areas for their vacations.
xxx
Funny anecdote, from Sabena many years ago. An acquaintance of mine, had applied for a job with the Belgian airline as flight attendant. She was proficient with French, English, German (and maybe another) but was weak in Dutch (a requirement in Belgium). She failed her Dutch language aptitude test. A while later, she did apply for a job with KLM and got hired. She was told "do not worry too much about speaking Dutch with KLM, we appreciate your proficiency in English, French and German as most of our passengers speak English anyway, we know your Dutch will get better with practice".
xxx
So, for me, "als mijn vrienden uit Den Haag" do not let me practice, I have had a few rare opportunities to speak Dutch, in Capetown or Johannesburg, and figure road signs in Afrikaans... Besides, my Dutch has helped me at times to figure what the "Scandi-hooligans" say when sipping a beer in Copenhagen or Oslo...
xxx
Fact is, I surprise Dutch/Flemish tourists in Buenos Aires or Brazil when they ask me where to go to get dinner. There is even a Dutch town with windmills and tulips in Brazil... even wooden shoes.
xxx
To the few of you seeking a job with KLM, and concerned about settling in the Netherlands, do not be too worried about not speaking Dutch. Your English is understood, and the Dutch are great people.
xxx
And Grolsch is "een lekker bier" (I hate Heineken...) -
Happy contrails
P.S. Hoe kan ik "happy contrails" zeggen in het Nederlands, a.u.b.?
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English, Dutch, German and the Scandinavian languages are all Germanic in origin. French, Spanish, Italian etc. are not, they are part of the Romance group.
One Germanic-language speaker will adapt to another one far more easily than to a Romance language and vice versa.
One Germanic-language speaker will adapt to another one far more easily than to a Romance language and vice versa.
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Our crews used to party with the KLM crews at various destinations. Quite apart from having the most gorgeous collection of wimmin, they all spoke perfect English, and indeed once their flight engineer was singing English North Sea sea shanties (ex-engineer on North Sea oil rig boats). Far more fun than our own crews, and dammit, they could outdrink us too! They knew everyone in Coronation Street and Eastenders as well! It was bewildering. The key is a superb education system that actually achieves something, and all that English television. And they are the only nation I know that fully understands and appreciates whacky English humour that we think nobody else knows! I used to find it disconcerting to find foreigners with exactly the same thought processes as us.
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@ BelArgUSA
Waarschijnlijk komt "goede vlucht" het dichtst in de buurt!
About hardly getting a chance to practice Dutch/Flemish: just keep telling us not to switch to English -or whatever other language!
(though I must admit that I usually keep going back to the 'other' language anyway ... hey, it's fun!
)
Hoe kan ik "happy contrails" zeggen in het Nederlands, a.u.b.?
About hardly getting a chance to practice Dutch/Flemish: just keep telling us not to switch to English -or whatever other language!
(though I must admit that I usually keep going back to the 'other' language anyway ... hey, it's fun!
)
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I agree with Telstar about the television, I myself a swedish pilot working in turkey with an icao level 6 in english find that television was the biggest factor in my knowledge of the language, but also the school system plays a huge role..
Here in Turkey it's a very big problem, no one speaks english among the normal population, they never listen to english music or english speaking tv. Having been here for more than 6 months now I've found it very difficult to live here as a foreigner without being forced to learn the language.
And most interesting to me is that young people who just finished school having studied english for 8 years doesn't basically know any other words than hello and good bye. What are they doing in class?
And among the pilots the english level is not up to level 4 but some are trying to improve their knowledge which I see as a very good sign.
Here in Turkey it's a very big problem, no one speaks english among the normal population, they never listen to english music or english speaking tv. Having been here for more than 6 months now I've found it very difficult to live here as a foreigner without being forced to learn the language.
And most interesting to me is that young people who just finished school having studied english for 8 years doesn't basically know any other words than hello and good bye. What are they doing in class?
And among the pilots the english level is not up to level 4 but some are trying to improve their knowledge which I see as a very good sign.
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It is interesting that so many of you quoted undubbed television as a main source for good English. I remember that my mother, who has Swedish roots, always told me the same with regard to her Swedish family and friends. From my own experience I can add that subtitles are particularly helpful. When I watch a film on DVD I always rewind and switch on the subtitle when I did not understand a word or phrase.
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Maybe one of our Dutch colleagues here can confirm a story I was told whilst on a nightstop in AMS a few years ago. The basic gist of the narrative was that a Dutch minister wanted to make English the first language of the Netherlands due to the fact that rates of throat cancer were higher in people who only spoke Dutch due to the "rrrrrrr" sound required when speaking. Was I looking that naive that night, did the Dutch guy telling me have too much beer in him or is there a grain of truth in this???????????
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It is indeed often compared with an infection...maybe even true
it's a horrendous language...
As to bring up more serious diseases (as someone did before) does not count as a joke IMHO.
But I am sure there was no mal-intent
kind regards,
NB
it's a horrendous language...
As to bring up more serious diseases (as someone did before) does not count as a joke IMHO.
But I am sure there was no mal-intent
kind regards,
NB
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This is an interesting debate. I would tend to agree with previous posters who consider that the impact of undubbed TV programmes at least partly explains the high level of English proficiency in the Netherlands or Sweden or Denmark for instance.
Coming from (just) accross the Channel, I recall that the level of English teachers in the schools I attended was usually quite decent; however, most students did not routinely have to practice English after they left high school (or university). Also, the fact that we get few original-version (subtitled) movies on TV (with the exception of some "golden oldies" at stupid o'clock) would explain the awful accent that most of my fellow countrymen have when attempting to speak English - even those whose vocabulary and syntax are actually good.
If I can take my own example, quite apart from having lived in Britain for the better part of 10 years, I used to go to cinemas in Paris that would show US or British movies in original version (again, with subtitles) - and I can confirm that it's priceless for proficiency. I also endeavoured to read English-language newspapers and magazines for the same reason.
Since there is no better experience than immersion in a language, travelling to English-speaking countries is also very useful. Geography also plays a part: considering the relatively small size of the Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland, or even Sweden or Finland (population-wise!), and the fact that these languages are not widely spoken out of their respective countries, it makes plain common sense to learn some foreign language.
Having trained alongside KLM "cadets" in Florida, worked with their crews in a previous airport job and flying with a number of Dutch colleagues, I concur that their level of English surpasses most other non-native English speakers (and that of a few Brits and Yanks too!) They are also top people to work with
Cheers
Coming from (just) accross the Channel, I recall that the level of English teachers in the schools I attended was usually quite decent; however, most students did not routinely have to practice English after they left high school (or university). Also, the fact that we get few original-version (subtitled) movies on TV (with the exception of some "golden oldies" at stupid o'clock) would explain the awful accent that most of my fellow countrymen have when attempting to speak English - even those whose vocabulary and syntax are actually good.
If I can take my own example, quite apart from having lived in Britain for the better part of 10 years, I used to go to cinemas in Paris that would show US or British movies in original version (again, with subtitles) - and I can confirm that it's priceless for proficiency. I also endeavoured to read English-language newspapers and magazines for the same reason.
Since there is no better experience than immersion in a language, travelling to English-speaking countries is also very useful. Geography also plays a part: considering the relatively small size of the Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland, or even Sweden or Finland (population-wise!), and the fact that these languages are not widely spoken out of their respective countries, it makes plain common sense to learn some foreign language.
Having trained alongside KLM "cadets" in Florida, worked with their crews in a previous airport job and flying with a number of Dutch colleagues, I concur that their level of English surpasses most other non-native English speakers (and that of a few Brits and Yanks too!) They are also top people to work with
Cheers