Single pilot aircraft flown by two crew?
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Single pilot aircraft flown by two crew?
Hi
I have a question about flying as captain on a single pilot aircraft flown by two crew, for example a Twotter or Kingair. Do you need to have an Atpl to do this, what are the licence requirements under JAR and do they differ between ICAO states?
I'm asking because I am looking into the possibility of getting a job as co-pilot on an aircraft like the Twotter or Kingair and was wandering what the requirements for upgrade to Captain would be?
Thanks
I have a question about flying as captain on a single pilot aircraft flown by two crew, for example a Twotter or Kingair. Do you need to have an Atpl to do this, what are the licence requirements under JAR and do they differ between ICAO states?
I'm asking because I am looking into the possibility of getting a job as co-pilot on an aircraft like the Twotter or Kingair and was wandering what the requirements for upgrade to Captain would be?
Thanks
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A lot of what you need is in the attached.
http://www.pprune.org/questions/3425...-pilot-ftl.htm
Essentially if you fly as a co-pilot (or safety pilot is a better description) of an aircraft certified as single pilot then you can't log anything. As you will probably know to get your ATPL amongst other things you need 500 hours in a multi crew aircraft. Therein lies the problem for you. On one hand you will gather valuable time and experience sitting in a commercial aircraft flying IR and airways but on the other hand your logbook will have nothing to show for it.
The only way around this if you hold a JAA licence is to (a) have a type rating on the aircraft and (b) ensure that the AOC certifies the aircraft as needing two crew members.
On a related matter it is not uncommon for insurance companies to require a safety pilot even though the aircraft is certified by the AOC and manufacturer as single pilot. This occurs quite a lot when flying VIP's and medivac. Unfortunately you can't log any of this time.
http://www.pprune.org/questions/3425...-pilot-ftl.htm
Essentially if you fly as a co-pilot (or safety pilot is a better description) of an aircraft certified as single pilot then you can't log anything. As you will probably know to get your ATPL amongst other things you need 500 hours in a multi crew aircraft. Therein lies the problem for you. On one hand you will gather valuable time and experience sitting in a commercial aircraft flying IR and airways but on the other hand your logbook will have nothing to show for it.
The only way around this if you hold a JAA licence is to (a) have a type rating on the aircraft and (b) ensure that the AOC certifies the aircraft as needing two crew members.
On a related matter it is not uncommon for insurance companies to require a safety pilot even though the aircraft is certified by the AOC and manufacturer as single pilot. This occurs quite a lot when flying VIP's and medivac. Unfortunately you can't log any of this time.
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Single pilot/multi crew
Hi
You need to hold a JAR CPL to be able to command an aircraft like the Twotter, having said that most companies now require you to have at least a frozen ATPL. At least that is now the case with my company. Don't know the requirements of other ICAO states I'm afraid. The reason for the frozen ATPL is so that whoever employes you has the flexibilty to transfer you within different fleets.
Potkettleblack is wrong in stating that you gain nothing, you can gain valuable experience plus if you can get 500hrs in an aircraft like the Twotter flying multi crew and get your employer (in the UK) to validate it as such it negates the the requirement to do an MCC course, at least that was my experience.
Hope this helps.
You need to hold a JAR CPL to be able to command an aircraft like the Twotter, having said that most companies now require you to have at least a frozen ATPL. At least that is now the case with my company. Don't know the requirements of other ICAO states I'm afraid. The reason for the frozen ATPL is so that whoever employes you has the flexibilty to transfer you within different fleets.
Potkettleblack is wrong in stating that you gain nothing, you can gain valuable experience plus if you can get 500hrs in an aircraft like the Twotter flying multi crew and get your employer (in the UK) to validate it as such it negates the the requirement to do an MCC course, at least that was my experience.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for those replies Potkettleblack and Froglob.
I understood that if a non JAR 25 aircraft such as the Twotter was required to fly two crew for the operation then these hours would count towards the multi crew time required for the issue of an ATPL. At least that was what was stated in the 2007 version of LASORS, which is in case you are not familiar with it, essentially the rules and regulations of the UK CAA for licencing. The 2008 version is less clear though.
I have a friend who has been recently flying a Be200 air ambulance in Scotland as co-pilot/safety pilot. He tells me although he can log the hours towards the ATPL for multi crew time, he needs to have a JAR 25 type rating in order to have the ATPL issued and apparently he cannot captain the Be200 under multi crew operation unless he has an Atpl.
Therefore, he is moving on to a JAR 25 jet within the company in order to get the ATPL and then will be able to move back onto the Be200 as Captain.
It appears to me that in order to fly an aircraft such as Twotter or Kingair as Captain you don't need an ATPL when it is a single pilot operation. However, if you were to fly Captain when it is a two crew operation then you need an ATPL.
What are your thoughts on that? Its all very confusing isn't it!
I understood that if a non JAR 25 aircraft such as the Twotter was required to fly two crew for the operation then these hours would count towards the multi crew time required for the issue of an ATPL. At least that was what was stated in the 2007 version of LASORS, which is in case you are not familiar with it, essentially the rules and regulations of the UK CAA for licencing. The 2008 version is less clear though.
I have a friend who has been recently flying a Be200 air ambulance in Scotland as co-pilot/safety pilot. He tells me although he can log the hours towards the ATPL for multi crew time, he needs to have a JAR 25 type rating in order to have the ATPL issued and apparently he cannot captain the Be200 under multi crew operation unless he has an Atpl.
Therefore, he is moving on to a JAR 25 jet within the company in order to get the ATPL and then will be able to move back onto the Be200 as Captain.
It appears to me that in order to fly an aircraft such as Twotter or Kingair as Captain you don't need an ATPL when it is a single pilot operation. However, if you were to fly Captain when it is a two crew operation then you need an ATPL.
What are your thoughts on that? Its all very confusing isn't it!
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Hi there,
I don't know about the 2008 version of lasors but from personal experience you can captain a JAR 23 aircraft single pilot or multi crew with just the CPL or frozen ATPL. If you have done the type rating on the twotter or beech then every hour you fly goes in the log book (you are only a safety pilot if you are sitting there with a licence & multi engine IR but no type rating).
If the machine is operated as a two crew and is stated as such in the AOC then every hour is Multi Crew time and every hour counts towards your required 500 multi pilot. When you come to apply for the ATPL you must have photo copies of the AOC stating that the plane is operated as two crew and this will satisfy the CAA.
As mentioned earlier, in order to unfreeze the ATPL you have to have a JAR 25 type rating. So you can fly the twotter for a couple of years, get all the required hours, then when someone offers you a job on a JAR 25 aircraft when you do the check ride try and have an ATPL skills test included. Then the ATPL is yours.
Finally, other surprising JAR 23 and 'commercial category' aircraft also include Beech 1900, Citation CJ1,2, and 3 and the Beechcraft Premier (two of which weigh alot more than 12500 lbs) Technically single pilot planes but all are operated two crew in europe and many are captained by guys and gals with Blue licences.
So don't worry, if you do a type rating then all the hours are yours and they all count towards unfreezing the ATPL.
Good luck
I don't know about the 2008 version of lasors but from personal experience you can captain a JAR 23 aircraft single pilot or multi crew with just the CPL or frozen ATPL. If you have done the type rating on the twotter or beech then every hour you fly goes in the log book (you are only a safety pilot if you are sitting there with a licence & multi engine IR but no type rating).
If the machine is operated as a two crew and is stated as such in the AOC then every hour is Multi Crew time and every hour counts towards your required 500 multi pilot. When you come to apply for the ATPL you must have photo copies of the AOC stating that the plane is operated as two crew and this will satisfy the CAA.
As mentioned earlier, in order to unfreeze the ATPL you have to have a JAR 25 type rating. So you can fly the twotter for a couple of years, get all the required hours, then when someone offers you a job on a JAR 25 aircraft when you do the check ride try and have an ATPL skills test included. Then the ATPL is yours.
Finally, other surprising JAR 23 and 'commercial category' aircraft also include Beech 1900, Citation CJ1,2, and 3 and the Beechcraft Premier (two of which weigh alot more than 12500 lbs) Technically single pilot planes but all are operated two crew in europe and many are captained by guys and gals with Blue licences.
So don't worry, if you do a type rating then all the hours are yours and they all count towards unfreezing the ATPL.
Good luck
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Thanks for that reply Grum. That seems to make more sense. Funny you say the B1900 is a JAR 23 aircraft. I thought that was JAR 25 or is there a difference between the C and D version.
Cheers
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That must be a Gama or SAS requirement. As everyone says you can be P1 in a King air 200 with a CPL.
Which leads to something which I have never gotten a definite answer to. In the UK can a 1900D be flown single pilot? I know it is a single pilot aircraft but I thought with 19 seats, pressurisation etc etc for public transport it would have to be multi crew. Any thoughts?
Which leads to something which I have never gotten a definite answer to. In the UK can a 1900D be flown single pilot? I know it is a single pilot aircraft but I thought with 19 seats, pressurisation etc etc for public transport it would have to be multi crew. Any thoughts?
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There's an appendix at the back of LASORS with a list of all the type and class ratings. Sorry i was lazy and didn't want to download the whole thing to find the link but here is the european list: http://http://easa.europa.eu/ws_prod...eb_general.php
can't get the tidy link feature to work
Anyway there is the 1900D as single pilot. The commuter category covers aircraft intended to be used for public transport with MTOW of 19000lbs or less (8618kg) and with a maximum of 19 seats. (wonder where the 1900 gets its name?) so it fits in just fine. Pressurisation has nothing to do with it although common sense might say it should do.
I don't know of any 1900's in Europe really except Twinjet and Netjets maitenance. In Africa there are plenty and most of them seem to be two crew.
I read that the commuter category is for turbo-prop aircraft only but there is the CJ3 down as single pilot with it's MTOW at 14000lbs. So if you need to unfreeze your ATPL, getting a type rating on a nice new CJ3 with collins proline 21 and FADEC won't do it, but get a rating on a clapped out old Citation 2 C550 (that could weigh only 13300lbs) will do the trick just fine.
can't get the tidy link feature to work
Anyway there is the 1900D as single pilot. The commuter category covers aircraft intended to be used for public transport with MTOW of 19000lbs or less (8618kg) and with a maximum of 19 seats. (wonder where the 1900 gets its name?) so it fits in just fine. Pressurisation has nothing to do with it although common sense might say it should do.
I don't know of any 1900's in Europe really except Twinjet and Netjets maitenance. In Africa there are plenty and most of them seem to be two crew.
I read that the commuter category is for turbo-prop aircraft only but there is the CJ3 down as single pilot with it's MTOW at 14000lbs. So if you need to unfreeze your ATPL, getting a type rating on a nice new CJ3 with collins proline 21 and FADEC won't do it, but get a rating on a clapped out old Citation 2 C550 (that could weigh only 13300lbs) will do the trick just fine.
