need a sincere answers
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2
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From: Israel
need a sincere answers
i am a 1000 hours pilot with 200 hours multi (piston) and considered above average by examiners during all my career.
i had an unpleasant incident during training on DHC 6 from the right seat:
during taxi on right engine only i was instructed to start the left one.
(its a total manualy PT-6 start)
it happened to me twice in one month that instead of pushing forward
the left engine fuel lever, i pulled the right one and shut down the working
engine! (i have to mention that my other hand is far on the starter and
my eyes are on the Ng gauge. the fuel levers are overhead and very close to eachother.)
do you think its a no go with training? do you think that i have to consider again my fitness to been a pilot?? or may be i am too tough with my self?
thanks for your sincere replies..
i had an unpleasant incident during training on DHC 6 from the right seat:
during taxi on right engine only i was instructed to start the left one.
(its a total manualy PT-6 start)
it happened to me twice in one month that instead of pushing forward
the left engine fuel lever, i pulled the right one and shut down the working
engine! (i have to mention that my other hand is far on the starter and
my eyes are on the Ng gauge. the fuel levers are overhead and very close to eachother.)
do you think its a no go with training? do you think that i have to consider again my fitness to been a pilot?? or may be i am too tough with my self?
thanks for your sincere replies..
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 284
Likes: 1
From: spain
I remember a guy on my Jet Provost course in the 60's on his final handling check who after he called for taxi clearance couldn't get the aircraft to move as he hadn't started the engine. Nerves I think. He still passed out and got his wings.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 69
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From: Scotland
i have to mention that my other hand is far on the starter and
my eyes are on the Ng gauge. the fuel levers are overhead and very close to eachother.
It might be a sensible idea from here on in to look at the switch,toggle or lever prior to operating it?
Certainly when airborne it's always been drummed into me that before ANY fuel lever is moved, it must be confirmed as being the correct one.
my eyes are on the Ng gauge. the fuel levers are overhead and very close to eachother.
It might be a sensible idea from here on in to look at the switch,toggle or lever prior to operating it?
Certainly when airborne it's always been drummed into me that before ANY fuel lever is moved, it must be confirmed as being the correct one.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 350
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From: Land of the Raj
The old adage of "Identify, Verify" comes to mind. I suggest strict adherance to the checklist and use the "Identify Verify" rule before moving anything. You could also use good CRM and get your left seater/Captain to confirm the correct control and direction before moving it.
Certainly looking at the Ng gauge is correct but it will not show anything until fuel has entered the engine and ignited so I would suggest looking at what your hand is doing, confirm it did/does the right thing then go to the gauges. One thing at a time.
Good luck
KW
Certainly looking at the Ng gauge is correct but it will not show anything until fuel has entered the engine and ignited so I would suggest looking at what your hand is doing, confirm it did/does the right thing then go to the gauges. One thing at a time.
Good luck
KW
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: x
the mere fact that you're debating wether to continue flying or not tells me that you should not quit. all pilots can make mistakes (sometimes the same one more than once!).
But you have the ability to analise and scrutinise yourself, that requires a humble attitude and self knowledge, and that is uncommon.
Most people try to hide their mistakes.
Don't quit. Learn from this mistake.
By the way I'm involved in training at airline level.
happy landings
But you have the ability to analise and scrutinise yourself, that requires a humble attitude and self knowledge, and that is uncommon.
Most people try to hide their mistakes.
Don't quit. Learn from this mistake.
By the way I'm involved in training at airline level.
happy landings
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
From: England
I agree with buffalowings
Throughout all our careers everyone will make a mistake, trick is if it doesnt kill you learn from it!
I feel from your post that you made an honest mistake and the skipper you were with delt with you harshly? I would like to hope any good captain trainer or not, would say ok well that wasnt right lets chat about it and work out why you did it, that way you are more likely to realise where your going wrong and never repeat the incedent, furthermore feel more at ease to ask questions with anything you are unsure about making for a rich environment to learn. We all have to start somewhere!
In my opinion I dont feel starting the engine on taxi to be the safest option anyway! Every airline I have worked for has insisted both sets of eyes monitor the start for safety sake, and dont feel this is possible during taxi.
Well thats my 2 pence worth, keep your chin up you will console your FO with this story one day when he/she makes the same mistake.
Happy flying!
Throughout all our careers everyone will make a mistake, trick is if it doesnt kill you learn from it!
I feel from your post that you made an honest mistake and the skipper you were with delt with you harshly? I would like to hope any good captain trainer or not, would say ok well that wasnt right lets chat about it and work out why you did it, that way you are more likely to realise where your going wrong and never repeat the incedent, furthermore feel more at ease to ask questions with anything you are unsure about making for a rich environment to learn. We all have to start somewhere!
In my opinion I dont feel starting the engine on taxi to be the safest option anyway! Every airline I have worked for has insisted both sets of eyes monitor the start for safety sake, and dont feel this is possible during taxi.
Well thats my 2 pence worth, keep your chin up you will console your FO with this story one day when he/she makes the same mistake.
Happy flying!
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: uk
If you learn from your own mistakes and are prepared to learn from others, then you have a future as a safe pilot ahead of you. The advice given above should be taken on board - we all make mistakes, even the 'aces'! Learn from it and be determined to move on.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 127
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From: Antigua, W.I.
"In my opinion I dont feel starting the engine on taxi to be the safest option anyway! Every airline I have worked for has insisted both sets of eyes monitor the start for safety sake, and dont feel this is possible during taxi."
Fully agree with REDWINGS on this one. Why not start before taxi? Those PT6s just sip fuel and the savings created by starting during taxi are negligible. Flew the machine for years and never had a company insist we start during taxi. Two pairs of eyes required for start and another two pairs required for taxi.
And if you did pull the wrong fuel lever, look at the bright side - at least it wasn't an airstart!
Fully agree with REDWINGS on this one. Why not start before taxi? Those PT6s just sip fuel and the savings created by starting during taxi are negligible. Flew the machine for years and never had a company insist we start during taxi. Two pairs of eyes required for start and another two pairs required for taxi.
And if you did pull the wrong fuel lever, look at the bright side - at least it wasn't an airstart!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Having flown the first DHC-6 on the American west coast (circa 1966), and further realising that the airplane was designed from the get go as a single pilot machine, quite frankly, it is my considered opinion that the left seat pilot should be starting engines...both of 'em, prior to taxying the aircraft.
Having been the assistant chief pilot (and training director) of a rather large commuter airline during this time (with no less than 38 DHC-6 aircraft, in addition to about 15 BE99's), all First Officers were taught (and qualified) to fly from the left hand seat, and did so.
Your training organisation needs to re-think their entire procedure, it seems to me.
Proper training pays off...big time, in my opinion.
We're not talking big jet here, but a turbopropellor aircraft....and a small one at that.
Having been the assistant chief pilot (and training director) of a rather large commuter airline during this time (with no less than 38 DHC-6 aircraft, in addition to about 15 BE99's), all First Officers were taught (and qualified) to fly from the left hand seat, and did so.
Your training organisation needs to re-think their entire procedure, it seems to me.
Proper training pays off...big time, in my opinion.
We're not talking big jet here, but a turbopropellor aircraft....and a small one at that.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 10
From: France
IDF,
Sounds to me like the infinitely more simple case of learning to drive (or your very first hours in the air).
The first couple of hours are fine, because you do every simple gesture consciously. Then slowly you ARE learning, and you go from manual to automatic, and pulling away from a traffic light becomes a single manoeuvre, rather than a "brake-clutch-throttle" procedure. And that's when you stall time and again, and that's when you say "oh, (expletive deleted) I'll never learn", until the "automatics" are in place.
And at some point you get over that hump.
I've never started a PT-6.
But I'm sure some of the procedures have to be engrained in your brain enough to recognise an anomaly in what you're doing.
Everybody makes mistakes while learning. It would be strange if you were the exception.
Wishing you the very best of luck.
Christian
Sounds to me like the infinitely more simple case of learning to drive (or your very first hours in the air).
The first couple of hours are fine, because you do every simple gesture consciously. Then slowly you ARE learning, and you go from manual to automatic, and pulling away from a traffic light becomes a single manoeuvre, rather than a "brake-clutch-throttle" procedure. And that's when you stall time and again, and that's when you say "oh, (expletive deleted) I'll never learn", until the "automatics" are in place.
And at some point you get over that hump.
I've never started a PT-6.
But I'm sure some of the procedures have to be engrained in your brain enough to recognise an anomaly in what you're doing.
Everybody makes mistakes while learning. It would be strange if you were the exception.
Wishing you the very best of luck.
Christian
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 643
Likes: 30
From: Global Vagabond
You've had the same boo boo twice and you're wondering if you should pack it in?
I'm very tempted to type something that would get me banned.
Get a grip.
Analyse why you made this mistake with your instructor, identify the weak links in your "process", amend said "process" and eliminate this issue.
Twotters have ergonomic issues a plenty, they're not your fault. But, IMHO you need to be a bit more resilient, thinking of giving up should not happen over such an issue, especially with 1000 hrs under your belt.
Good Luck
I'm very tempted to type something that would get me banned.
Get a grip.
Analyse why you made this mistake with your instructor, identify the weak links in your "process", amend said "process" and eliminate this issue.
Twotters have ergonomic issues a plenty, they're not your fault. But, IMHO you need to be a bit more resilient, thinking of giving up should not happen over such an issue, especially with 1000 hrs under your belt.
Good Luck
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: UK
You're fine !! You're asking the question so therefore you are a good pilot - 30 years from now you'll remember this and smile.
Good luck - put it behiind you - in the great scheme of things it is nothing - - honest.
Good luck - put it behiind you - in the great scheme of things it is nothing - - honest.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: UK
Like other posters have said, just look at what your twiddling with! I fly with a Captain who on line training started number 1 engine instead of number 2 (737 if you hadn't already guessed). from that day when starting engines, he points at the number "2", says "engine number 2", aloud and then grds it! There's no rushing required in this job, just nice slow, methodical actions, and you'll be ok. I bet you won't do it again though, and better on the ground than in the air!
