Heavy go-arounds
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sth Bucks UK
Age: 60
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heavy go-arounds
At 18.38 yesterday (Saturday) I was driving past LHR on the northbound M25 when I saw a heavy make a go-around from around 200ft.
Go-arounds are common at Denham, but I've never seen one at LHR, and it got me thinking...
One would imagine that with all the gismos on a modern commercial jet that go-arounds are unusual, especially when flown by highly trained pilots
, and runway obstructions at LHR are surely rare?
How much of a drag (no puns please) is it to make a go-around in a heavy? I tried to keep an eye on the 'plane to see if it executed a low-level circuit, but had to keep the other eye on the morons on the road, so couldn't track it.
What's the deal with this kind of thing?
Just curious.
Go-arounds are common at Denham, but I've never seen one at LHR, and it got me thinking...
One would imagine that with all the gismos on a modern commercial jet that go-arounds are unusual, especially when flown by highly trained pilots
, and runway obstructions at LHR are surely rare?How much of a drag (no puns please) is it to make a go-around in a heavy? I tried to keep an eye on the 'plane to see if it executed a low-level circuit
, but had to keep the other eye on the morons on the road, so couldn't track it.What's the deal with this kind of thing?
Just curious.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sth Bucks UK
Age: 60
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the link. I guess I should have searched, but I was more interested in the logistics of a go-around.
I'm sure that landing slots are difficult to get at LHR, so what happens when you miss one, how long does a go-around take in a 747, can you be sent off to a hold and end up with a half hour delay etc...
but reading the posts in the link I guess it's all in a day's work.
I'm sure that landing slots are difficult to get at LHR, so what happens when you miss one, how long does a go-around take in a 747, can you be sent off to a hold and end up with a half hour delay etc...
but reading the posts in the link I guess it's all in a day's work.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't really see how the "gismos" on the aircraft play a part in the likelihood of experiencing a go-around, there are many different reasons why a missed approach might be necessary: traffic slow to vacate, unable to comply with speed constraints, insufficient track miles, stable approach criteria not met and many more!
A missed approach in a modern jetliner isn't a particularly difficult thing to execute and it is a well practiced maneuver. What happens to the aircraft afterwards really depends on the local procedures at the airport and traffic density. At a quiet airfield, a brief climb followed by vectors back to the ILS is probably the norm. At LHR however, I would imagine a trip back to the hold is quite likely so that the aircraft can be re-sequenced and slotted back into the flow of arriving traffic. Obviously this results in delays and extra costs to the airline (fuel, possibility of accommodating passengers with missed connections etc...)
A missed approach in a modern jetliner isn't a particularly difficult thing to execute and it is a well practiced maneuver. What happens to the aircraft afterwards really depends on the local procedures at the airport and traffic density. At a quiet airfield, a brief climb followed by vectors back to the ILS is probably the norm. At LHR however, I would imagine a trip back to the hold is quite likely so that the aircraft can be re-sequenced and slotted back into the flow of arriving traffic. Obviously this results in delays and extra costs to the airline (fuel, possibility of accommodating passengers with missed connections etc...)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Age: 35
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last night around that time there were a few issues at LHR as far as I know.
Easterlies were in use, 09L landing runway as per usual, but was closed for a short time due to 'Lighting issues'... single runway ops at peak time makes it interesting.
May have been the reason why you saw the go around..?
Couple of PAN's declared aswell with the stacks full... credit to all the controllers and pilots who coped under the stressful circumstances.
Easterlies were in use, 09L landing runway as per usual, but was closed for a short time due to 'Lighting issues'... single runway ops at peak time makes it interesting.
May have been the reason why you saw the go around..?
Couple of PAN's declared aswell with the stacks full... credit to all the controllers and pilots who coped under the stressful circumstances.
Go-arounds at Heathrow are actually quite common, at least one per day. The most common reason is a slow-to-vacate aircraft ahead.
The aircraft will always follow a published procedure which involves an immediate turn of around 30 degrees to take the plane away from possible conflict with aircraft departing the parallel runway.
Then the aircraft will often be sequenced back for another approach.
I was on such a flight one evening coming in from Manchester. We went around from around 100ft on approach to 27L, turned to the south and then back round to the East. We were put on a 20 mile final back onto 27L but not into a holding stack.
The aircraft will always follow a published procedure which involves an immediate turn of around 30 degrees to take the plane away from possible conflict with aircraft departing the parallel runway.
Then the aircraft will often be sequenced back for another approach.
I was on such a flight one evening coming in from Manchester. We went around from around 100ft on approach to 27L, turned to the south and then back round to the East. We were put on a 20 mile final back onto 27L but not into a holding stack.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've found that Heathrow (and indeed most airports) are pretty good with Go Arounds... They know that in many instances the aircraft are going to be fairly light on fuel (not in a dangerous way though) and so its best to get them back for another approach. In an instance like this the aircraft would usually be vectored back for another approach immediately, whilst if it is really busy, another aircraft that has just left the hold might be sent back to the hold, or given a larger vector, to accomodate.
They are usually a non-issue, and ATC handle them fairly well.
Had one just the other day (not at Heathrow but a very busy US airport) and it was a vector straight back up to 10miles for another go. Very well handled by ATC.
They are usually a non-issue, and ATC handle them fairly well.
Had one just the other day (not at Heathrow but a very busy US airport) and it was a vector straight back up to 10miles for another go. Very well handled by ATC.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,095
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the logistics point of view when I did a go around at Kai Tak in a B744 and got fed back in fairly quickly it cost me 4.6 tons of fuel, previous aircraft still on the R/W.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: europe
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have read this before in a similar subject .
"go arounds are a "normal " well practiced " procedure".
well i do not agree .....
you practice a couple of go arounds in the sim every 6 months,and even then you kind of know when you will do them .
how many go arounds do you do on everyday flying? maybe once a year?
i am not saying that each go around should lead to a disaster ,but i do not accept the fact that go around is something normal .during approach your mind is working towards landing the plane .yes you should always keep go around in the back of your mind when on approach ,but when you are fighting " nature" to get the plane down ,a transition from landing to flying is not that easy.
all is well if you are prepared for it .....you see a situation developing and you start shifting from landing to go around in your mind.
if something sudden forces you to go around ,and if the plane doesnt respond the way it should be ,then u are in a different ball game.
there are a lot of different types of go around ,if i am allowed to say .
there is the " i am not happy with the approach at 500 ft and i elect to push the thrust levers forward and do a go around " and then there is the "why are we suddently sinking at 1500ft rate of decent at 200 ft " go around. dont tell me that at 200ft you were still thinking of the go around procedure ...
we are not multi tasking creatures ....if you tell me you were thinking of the go around procedure at 200ft ,i will ask who was doing the landing ?
go around IS NOT a well practiced ,normal procedure.(well practiced are take offs and landings.....and even then your mind expects them to be like the previous 200/300 ones)
go around IS something out of the normal and it should be respected as much as anything else that is not part of routine operation.
"go arounds are a "normal " well practiced " procedure".
well i do not agree .....
you practice a couple of go arounds in the sim every 6 months,and even then you kind of know when you will do them .
how many go arounds do you do on everyday flying? maybe once a year?
i am not saying that each go around should lead to a disaster ,but i do not accept the fact that go around is something normal .during approach your mind is working towards landing the plane .yes you should always keep go around in the back of your mind when on approach ,but when you are fighting " nature" to get the plane down ,a transition from landing to flying is not that easy.
all is well if you are prepared for it .....you see a situation developing and you start shifting from landing to go around in your mind.
if something sudden forces you to go around ,and if the plane doesnt respond the way it should be ,then u are in a different ball game.
there are a lot of different types of go around ,if i am allowed to say .
there is the " i am not happy with the approach at 500 ft and i elect to push the thrust levers forward and do a go around " and then there is the "why are we suddently sinking at 1500ft rate of decent at 200 ft " go around. dont tell me that at 200ft you were still thinking of the go around procedure ...
we are not multi tasking creatures ....if you tell me you were thinking of the go around procedure at 200ft ,i will ask who was doing the landing ?
go around IS NOT a well practiced ,normal procedure.(well practiced are take offs and landings.....and even then your mind expects them to be like the previous 200/300 ones)
go around IS something out of the normal and it should be respected as much as anything else that is not part of routine operation.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont tell me that at 200ft you were still thinking of the go around procedure ...
iqit,
With a post like that I very much doubt you are a professional aviator or even hold a pilot's licence of any type.
From the very start when I started doing circuits, many and I mean many go-arounds were practiced...over and over again. This continues to this day...ie when you do a new type rating...MANY go-rounds/missed approaches are practiced. Then when you're on the line, you practice in the sims.
Go-arounds are basically take-offs but without the ground roll so one could say that they offer greater level of safety than a take-off because the aircraft is already at flying speed! In fact a go-around procedure is almost identical to a take-off procedure in modern jet aircraft.....it's designed that way to keep the ergonomics of it simple.
As others have pointed out, there are MANY reasons a go-around might need to be executed.
I personally am always ready to go-around and only commit to a landing once parameters such as stable approach criteria, visual with required visibility, landing clearence recieved and runway is clear. But even then, if i float or another event occurs...I'm ready and willing to go-around...give it away and make another safe approach to land.
Better to go-around from a ****e approach or whatever and carry out a subsequent safer approach to land rather than wrestle the machine onto the ground because you're in a mindset of "I shall land" don't you think?
With a post like that I very much doubt you are a professional aviator or even hold a pilot's licence of any type.
From the very start when I started doing circuits, many and I mean many go-arounds were practiced...over and over again. This continues to this day...ie when you do a new type rating...MANY go-rounds/missed approaches are practiced. Then when you're on the line, you practice in the sims.
Go-arounds are basically take-offs but without the ground roll so one could say that they offer greater level of safety than a take-off because the aircraft is already at flying speed! In fact a go-around procedure is almost identical to a take-off procedure in modern jet aircraft.....it's designed that way to keep the ergonomics of it simple.
As others have pointed out, there are MANY reasons a go-around might need to be executed.
I personally am always ready to go-around and only commit to a landing once parameters such as stable approach criteria, visual with required visibility, landing clearence recieved and runway is clear. But even then, if i float or another event occurs...I'm ready and willing to go-around...give it away and make another safe approach to land.
Better to go-around from a ****e approach or whatever and carry out a subsequent safer approach to land rather than wrestle the machine onto the ground because you're in a mindset of "I shall land" don't you think?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some extraordinary comments in this thread:
<<The aircraft will always follow a published procedure which involves an immediate turn of around 30 degrees to take the plane away from possible conflict with aircraft departing the parallel runway.>>
You must check your info before writing such comments. No go-around at Heathrow calls for an "immediate" turn. 27L goes ahead to 1080ft before the turn, 27R goes ahead to 1580ft before the turn. 09R goes straight ahead to 3000ft then as directed. 09L goes ahead to 1580ft before turning. Although the go-arounds procedures are designed to be fail-safe, separation from any departing traffic will be provided by ATC, often by placing aircraft on radar headings.
<<Then the aircraft will often be sequenced back for another approach.>>
Well, that's a relief!! What happens to those that aren't??
<<ATC handle them fairly well.>>
That's nice to know too. Presumably sometimes they don't handle them well??
Go-arounds at Heathrow are not uncommon and ATC will do everything possible to sequence the go-around back into the landing stream with the minimum of delay but a heavy jet can't be turned back for a 2 mile approach. It can take 60-70 miles to fly a circuit back into Heathrow, or around 15-20 mins flying time.
<<The aircraft will always follow a published procedure which involves an immediate turn of around 30 degrees to take the plane away from possible conflict with aircraft departing the parallel runway.>>
You must check your info before writing such comments. No go-around at Heathrow calls for an "immediate" turn. 27L goes ahead to 1080ft before the turn, 27R goes ahead to 1580ft before the turn. 09R goes straight ahead to 3000ft then as directed. 09L goes ahead to 1580ft before turning. Although the go-arounds procedures are designed to be fail-safe, separation from any departing traffic will be provided by ATC, often by placing aircraft on radar headings.
<<Then the aircraft will often be sequenced back for another approach.>>
Well, that's a relief!! What happens to those that aren't??
<<ATC handle them fairly well.>>
That's nice to know too. Presumably sometimes they don't handle them well??
Go-arounds at Heathrow are not uncommon and ATC will do everything possible to sequence the go-around back into the landing stream with the minimum of delay but a heavy jet can't be turned back for a 2 mile approach. It can take 60-70 miles to fly a circuit back into Heathrow, or around 15-20 mins flying time.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TotalBeginner.. I recall few diversions following go-arounds in my 31 years dealing with such traffic other than wx diversions when LVPs were in force. Only one do I recall (probably early 70s):
Cessna 310 flew a go-around claiming to be too fast. It was re-positioned and then flew another go-around claiming some other sort of problem. The Air Controller gave the pilot appropriate instructions, followed by "Now go away and don't come back until you can fly that thing". We never saw it again!!
Cessna 310 flew a go-around claiming to be too fast. It was re-positioned and then flew another go-around claiming some other sort of problem. The Air Controller gave the pilot appropriate instructions, followed by "Now go away and don't come back until you can fly that thing". We never saw it again!!
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 17th Dec 2007 at 15:40.
My thanks to HEATHROW DIRECTOR and is colleagues - my last go-around was from less than 200' but ATC had my back on the ground 8 minutes later
Best controllers in the world - and so cheap
Best controllers in the world - and so cheap
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HD recollects:
...or was it "Now go away and don't come back until you can LAND that thing". 
"Now go away and don't come back until you can fly that thing".
Beacon Outbound
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: "Home is were the answer machine is"
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stickandrudderman,
Go to this website and select the appropriate date and time, and you can see the action as it happened:
http://lhr.webtrak-lochard.com/template/index.html
The aircraft that went around was a B777, flight EK003. It eventually landed at 1852 or so after some smart radar vectoring. Initially it was following a B737-500, flight AT802. It might be that this preceding A/C didn't clear the runway quick enough.
Quit a fascinating website. Zoom out a bit and see how the A/C are taken from the various holds and get vectored in. LGW and STN can be viewed as well be replacing the three letter code in the web address.
Go to this website and select the appropriate date and time, and you can see the action as it happened:
http://lhr.webtrak-lochard.com/template/index.html
The aircraft that went around was a B777, flight EK003. It eventually landed at 1852 or so after some smart radar vectoring. Initially it was following a B737-500, flight AT802. It might be that this preceding A/C didn't clear the runway quick enough.
Quit a fascinating website. Zoom out a bit and see how the A/C are taken from the various holds and get vectored in. LGW and STN can be viewed as well be replacing the three letter code in the web address.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go around -
xxx
In our 747, that is at worst, 2 or 2,500 kg of Jet-A1 waste.
Now, instead of 11,000 in tanks, we will have 9,000 kg left when parking.
Big concerns - just get back on approach path ASAP...
Then, insult the approach controlers at LEMD, in Spanish to upset BA pilots...
Do the after takeoff then landing check-lists again...
If any time, tell passengers "we needed practice to satisfy a certain "iquit" on Pprune."
Extra .2 or .3 of an hour if we are on overtime.
And by chance, something to talk about, in the hotel's bar on arrival.
I feel to be a "superior peelot" to be able to do these G/A soooo good.
Having a nervous breakdown as pilot performing a G/A is entertaining.
Certainly, all these many heart attacks sufferred by pilots must be on G/A.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
In our 747, that is at worst, 2 or 2,500 kg of Jet-A1 waste.
Now, instead of 11,000 in tanks, we will have 9,000 kg left when parking.
Big concerns - just get back on approach path ASAP...
Then, insult the approach controlers at LEMD, in Spanish to upset BA pilots...
Do the after takeoff then landing check-lists again...
If any time, tell passengers "we needed practice to satisfy a certain "iquit" on Pprune."
Extra .2 or .3 of an hour if we are on overtime.
And by chance, something to talk about, in the hotel's bar on arrival.
I feel to be a "superior peelot" to be able to do these G/A soooo good.
Having a nervous breakdown as pilot performing a G/A is entertaining.
Certainly, all these many heart attacks sufferred by pilots must be on G/A.
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heathrow Director -
Yes, sometimes they are brought immediately back for another approach. Sometimes, they are sent to holding patterns.
I hold London in high regard for their efforts, and the only go-arounds I've seen there have resulted in the immediate next approach treatment. I have yet to do one there myself. It is not necessarily normal in other parts of the world though.
Presumably, yes, they don't always handle them well. I've seen some monumental efforts to make life difficult after a go around. Is it because of airspace restrictions, or perhaps traffic? Or just the controller wasn't ready for the possiblity? I said they usually handle them fairly well, because thats what they do. Usually. Definately not always.
BelArgUSA, 2 to 2.5t for a go around... you must have been quite lucky. Last one I did was a 4t effort, and not even particulally long.
Yes, sometimes they are brought immediately back for another approach. Sometimes, they are sent to holding patterns.
I hold London in high regard for their efforts, and the only go-arounds I've seen there have resulted in the immediate next approach treatment. I have yet to do one there myself. It is not necessarily normal in other parts of the world though.
Presumably, yes, they don't always handle them well. I've seen some monumental efforts to make life difficult after a go around. Is it because of airspace restrictions, or perhaps traffic? Or just the controller wasn't ready for the possiblity? I said they usually handle them fairly well, because thats what they do. Usually. Definately not always.
BelArgUSA, 2 to 2.5t for a go around... you must have been quite lucky. Last one I did was a 4t effort, and not even particulally long.