Can I log hours on jumpseat as safety copilot ( B737)

[flyintheskyfr]

Hello,

When a new copilot come to my compagny, there is safety copilot on the jumpseat for the first 10 sectors.

Question: When I'm on duty as safety copilot, can I put these hours in my logbook ?

Many thanks , happy landings

[A Very Civil Pilot]

No











(extra words added to lengthen post)

[flyintheskyfr]

thanks, It's what I thought

Any text to confirm this answer?

[MANAGP]

Yes - as you are required to be on the flightdeck. The time spent as safety pilot counts to all hours limits as well.

[flyintheskyfr]

some pilots also told me that ... That's why i need a text to confirm :-)

[JB007]

In my previous co, I never logged any of the covering FO flights but was later told I could have as it was a requirement for the flight to operate that I was on the jump-seat.

Ask your management, could be something in your OMA.

Personally, not really fussed I didn't - somehow just doesn't seem right!

P.s 10 sectors?!? Really?

[Rainboe]

My impression is the aircraft is certified for 2 pilots. The trainee does not have an operations certificate therefore can't be officially P2, so the safety pilot should log as P2 as that is what he legally is. Does that sound right?

[zerozero]

For what it's worth.

It might be entirely different in France but in the States the answer would be absolutely not.

A pilot can only log that time when required to be there by aircraft certificate or operating certificate.

The 737 certainly doesn't require three pilots but maybe there's a stipulation in the French operating certificate.

If not, then I wouldn't recognize it as pilot time.

[Flying Farmer]

Ok so I have sat in the jump seat covering for a few new F/Os what do I log it as P3 possibly?

[Rainboe]

But in UK longhaul flights with 3 pilots, don't both copilots log full P2 time?

[Cough]

The 737 certainly doesn't require two pilots but maybe there's a stipulation in the French operating certificate.

*Giggle* Fairly sure it does....

Back to the point. Being the third pilot required to be there by the ops manual to facilitate training the new F/O means that you are a required flight crew member and can log it. P3 sounds right to me...

[zerozero]

Close timing.

*Cough* Looks like we discovered my error at about the same time. Deepest apologies.

Originally Posted by Cough

*Giggle* Fairly sure it does....

Originally Posted by zerozero

Last edited by zerozero : Today at 21:21. Reason: Correction.

[TopBunk]

I would have thought that the pilot converting onto type should log it as P3 (=Pu/t) and the supervising safety pilot as P2 ..... all imho.

In this I refer to CAA rules as used to be, don't know about JAROPS / FAR's.

Second point, I think on 3 crew long range ops, the P2 can only strictly speaking log time in seat, as indeed can the heavy captain (as P1), if carried. The only person who can log the total hours is the nominated P1.

[Bealzebub]

The rules are as follows :

Unless you have to take over the controls you are supernumerary and cannot log any flying time.

2 RECORDING OF FLIGHT TIMES
2.1 This subject refers to the recording of flight time for Flight Crew Licensing purposes only. Flight time recorded in order to comply with Article 72(3) of the Air Navigation Order 2000 (ANO) shall continue to be recorded in accordance with the operator’s approved Flight Time Limitation Scheme and Article 72(a) of the ANO.
2.2 Introduction
2.2.1 There appears to be some confusion over the recording of flight times when an aircraft crew consists of more than the required number of pilots i.e. a ‘heavy’ crew.
2.2.2 The rules on logging of flight time are laid down in JAR-FCL 1.080, but for clarification the following should apply.
2.3 Pilot in Command
2.3.1 The designated commander of the aeroplane may log as pilot in command all the flight time. This includes rest taken on board.
2.4 Co-Pilot
2.4.1 The designated co-pilot of the aeroplane may log as co-pilot all the time he acts as co-pilot whilst sitting in a pilot’s seat.2.4.2 He may log as Pilot In Command Under Supervision (PICUS) all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot in command under the supervision of the pilot in command or a cruise relief pilot substituting for the pilot in command.
2.4.3 He may also log as pilot in command all the time he is acting as pilot in command and substituting for the designated commander of the aircraft when he is taking rest.
2.4.4 He may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.
FLIGHT OPERATIONS DEPARTMENT COMMUNICATION - 24/2002
Page 2
2.5 Cruise Relief Pilot
2.5.1 A cruise relief pilot may log as pilot in command all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat as relief for the designated commander.
2.5.2 He may log as co-pilot all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat as relief for the co-pilot.
2.5.3 He may log as PICUS all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot in command under the supervision of the designated commander or his relief.
2.5.4 He may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.

So No you cannot log any time spent sat on the jumpseat ( which is not a pilots seat ) as a safety pilot, observer, supernumery pilot, or anything else. The only exception (2.3.1) being that the designated commander of the aeroplane may log as pilot in command all the flight time. This includes rest taken on board.

[mustafagander]

It seems to me that the safety pilot is, in fact, P2 and part of the minimum legal crew. Use this test - can the flight legally depart without him? Answer no, then he can log the time as P2.

[Ambulance G-BLNW]

You CANNOT log jump seat time as P2. How ever under JAR-FCL 1.080 and associated IEM you can and should log it as supernumary crew. Whilst being Line Checked, the Line Checker is in Command and as such can log P1. For the Captain and F/O it is logged as PICUS and PICUS when flying their respective sectors, but when it is the Captains sector the F/O logs P2.

To recap P2/Co-Pilot time CAN ONLY BE LOG when, and I quote " Occupying a pilots seat". By the way the ANO is now at 2005 not 2000 as previously quoted above, and may have changed.

[Max Angle]

Whilst being Line Checked, the Line Checker is in Command and as such can log P1.

I don't think so, on all the line checks that I have had it is made very clear by the checker that they are observing the operation and not taking part in the flight, I sign the aircraft papers and am legally in command.
In addition ANO 50.3 states that if the aircraft is engaged in a public transport passenger flight the commander must remain at the controls for take-off and landing.

[Ambulance G-BLNW]

NO. The Line Checker is in command of the aircraft. He/She can issue commands that you as Captain must comply with even if they are in the jumpseat. Check JAR and ANO 2005.

[Bealzebub]

It seems to me that the safety pilot is, in fact, P2 and part of the minimum legal crew. Use this test - can the flight legally depart without him? Answer no, then he can log the time as P2.

No, you are not reading the rules. P2 is the operating co-pilot at the controls. A safety pilot is an observer who is carried at the behest of the operator and who is qualified to substitute for the pilot if required to do so. The safety pilot is an observer. Can the flight legally depart without a safety pilot ? The answer is Yes. Even if that were not the case, he cannot log as P2 anything other than the time he actually operates as the co-pilot at the controls of the aircraft. Sitting in the jumpseat would make him an observer and most certainly not P2. If the safety pilot occupies the co-pilots seat for any portion of the flight then he can at that point log the relevant period as P2.

My impression is the aircraft is certified for 2 pilots. The trainee does not have an operations certificate therefore can't be officially P2, so the safety pilot should log as P2 as that is what he legally is. Does that sound right?

Again no. The "trainee" at the point of operating as co-pilot on a public transport flight is licenced and certified to operate in that capacity. The requirement for a safety pilot is company generated and not required by any part of the relevant statutes. For the reasons already stated and quoted from the relevant statutory documents the observer ( safety pilot ) is not P2.

Yes - as you are required to be on the flightdeck. The time spent as safety pilot counts to all hours limits as well.

Again no. An operators requirement that you carry out an observers role makes you just that an observer. You are not the co-pilot, the pilot seated at the controls has that role as defined in the relevant statutory instrument. However it is correct that the time spent in the observers role would count towards the regulation of duty times etc. But of course it does that if you are travelling as a passenger, or sitting in on office on the ground as well and neither of those would allow you log the time as P2 either.

Whilst being Line Checked, the Line Checker is in Command and as such can log P1.

I don't think so, on all the line checks that I have had it is made very clear by the checker that they are observing the operation and not taking part in the flight, I sign the aircraft papers and am legally in command.
In addition ANO 50.3 states that if the aircraft is engaged in a public transport passenger flight the commander must remain at the controls for take-off and landing.

NO. The Line Checker is in command of the aircraft. He/She can issue commands that you as Captain must comply with even if they are in the jumpseat. Check JAR and ANO 2005

Not necessarily. The line checker does not have to be the aircraft commander. As Max angle as stated ANO 50.3 is clear on the point of the commander remaining at the controls for take off and landing. If the line checker is the commander then ANO 50.3 would have to be complied with. The line checker as commander would also be required to sign the tech log etc. If however the line checker is checking a 2 crew flight, then he/she is not the commander and therefore not in command of the aircraft.
You state,

Check JAR and ANO 2005

. Could you point out the section you are relying on for your argument ? The ANO document can be found here.

[Max Angle]

Check JAR and ANO 2005.

Can you point me to the relevant sections, I can't find anything that covers it but then they are fairly impenetrable documents.