Workings Hours and routes

[Shortflyer]

Hi

Firstly, can i say that I am a 34 yr old wannabee who starts his training on an intergrated course in Nov/Jan.

Although I have seen many roster patterns, I am curious to know whether the hours worked each working day and the routes are stable or variable?

Can you please post your:
1) Airline
e.g Easyjet
2) roster pattern
e.g 5-4-5-3
3) hrs flying each day + total hours worked each day.
e.g arrive 6.00am fly 2x 4 hours fnish 5.00pm
4) different or same flights/route each day/shift pattern.
e.g same route to cyprus on earlies varying route on lates.


Many thanks for your replies.

Paul

[Phileas Fogg]

Paul,
You are literally asking how long is a piece of string.

Once you've completed your training, got an ATPL, self funded an MCC, you should start looking for that first job which might well require you self funding a type rating, until you get to that stage you cannot predict if you will be flying a DHC8, an ATR, a B737 or a B767 etc. and all different types are a different length to that piece of string.

I can just imagine trying to operate to Cyprus and back, in a day, in an ATR42

[Shortflyer]

OK, I'll try again.

Can you please post:

1)Airline
2)Aircraft
3)Roster pattern
4)Flight time per day
5)working hours per day.

I am trying to establish how many hours are worked on top of the maximum 900hrs a year you can be expected to work.

Thanks

Paul

P.S please spare me any more references to string just your situation.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

PJohnson..

You have to learn to cawl before you can walk.. pay attention to what the previous post is saying to you!!

Get your licence first, then worry about where your first pay cheque come from.

Blue Foot

[hapzim]

Per year in the UK, 900 hrs is what you can actually fly. Duty hrs can be 2000 + as per the working time directive which is available on the web. This applies to all types of fixed wing aircraft.

55 hrs duty rostered per week, can increase up to 65 once the week starts.
95 hrs duty per 14 days.
190 hrs duty per 28 days.

100 hrs flying per 28 days.

All of this is in the Flight Time Limitations and the ANO which you can find on the web or via the CAA. Start learning as you will need it for your exams and to protect your licenses when working for a living.

Patterns change daily subject to which ever company you work for and are likely to be different in a couple of years time when yo have spent an arm and a leg getting yourself in a position to start applying for jobs.

[Shortflyer]

OK thanks for your replies but I'm gonna try 1 more time!

I don't need to know:
how much it costs - its extremely expensive.
how hard the exams are- 6 months of full time ground school on cabair intergrated course says it all.
how hard getting the first job is.
how many other qualifications and the process afterfATPL- MCC,CPL,IR, JOC, JOB, Type rateing, line training etc.

I just want to know how early (in time) before flying, you turn up to carry out flight planning and walk round checks. I was then trying to establish whether this would vary each day you fly (by being different each day) or whether there would be a pattern to calculations etc. I appreciate that passengers, baggage, fuel etc will change calculations. But if the route plane etc was the same it would get easier with time.

And then I wondered on returning home and parking, how long before you leave work and travel home.

Thats it!!

Any help greatfully appreciated.

Paul

[Hachet Harry]

you should start looking for that first job which might well require you self funding a type rating

See other threads; Don't do it!

[Phileas Fogg]

PJohnson6540,
How long is a piece of string?

[Yellow Sun]

PJohnson6540,
First of all try and dismiss the idea of 900 hours/year. That is merely a measure of what you do when you are actually at work. The staring point is the time you will not spend at work:
Whenever possible and if required by the crew member, days off will be
allocated so that they can be taken in the home environment.
A single day off will include 2 local nights and cover at least 34 hours.
A planned rest period may be included as part of a day off.
Crew members will
1) not be on duty more than 7 consecutive days between days off, but may
be positioned to the usual operating base on the next day, after which
they will have 2 consecutive days off, and
2) have 2 consecutive days off in any consecutive 14 days following the
previous 2 consecutive days off, and
3) have a minimum of 7 days off in any consecutive 4 weeks, and
4) have an average of at least 8 days off in each consecutive 4 week
period, averaged over three such periods.
That works out at 104 days off/year. Add to that (say) 28 days leave and you get 132 days, but you will (usually) have to subtract one day off/week of leave taken so you now have a total of 128 days off/year. So there are 228 days available to the company.
So how is the company going to utilise those days? First of all let's deal with Report Times, these vary from 1.30 to 0.45 before departure. i.e. pushback. Most shorthaul operators use 1.00 to 0.45. Prior to arriving in the crew room you have to park your car and being a new FO that means a Staff Car Park somewhere in the adjoining county and a bus ride, so allow 20-30 mins for that. When you arrive there is the briefing material to obtain, so join the queue for a working terminal and printer, preferably one that has paper in it. Collect any other paperwork you require and off to the aircraft along with the crew. Queue to get through security and make your way to the jet, sorry did I mention that it's another bus ride? This can easily take 15-20 minutes and if your company only allows 45 mins for report then time is becoming short and you haven't even started the security checks/walk round let alone looked closely at the Notams. On completion of your duty, you are probably allowed 30 mins for post flight actions. Again it's the bus ride, if there is one available, input all the times into the terminal or even rewrite the paerwork in a legible fashion then it's off to catch the bus back to the car park. But if you are on "lates" and you have just missed one it could easily be 20 minutes before the next one. So, over an hour after arriving on stand you are at your car and your next report is in 12 hours time.
Roster patterns are another item that causes much angst. 5/3/5/4 may look good on paper but the reality is that you will almost inevitably be on an early start first day back. So with an 0530 report and the issues outlined above you can really write off the last evening of your days off. In addition the finish before the 4 days off is likely to be very late, small hours of the morning being fairly common. Makes the first day off a bit slim.
Routes will be anything and everything and can and are changed on the day. In fact just about anything can usually be changed except allocated days off.
That brings us nicely to the real bug bear, Standby Duty. Standby is crewing's favourite because they can do just about anything they like with you. If you have a block of say 5 days Standby you just wipe that period out of your life. You will be required to be in contact for a period of usually 8 hours/day. During that time you must be able to report within a defined period of time, usually between 1.00 and 1.30. You can be called for anything and everything and you usually are. Try this one for size, you are on the first day of a block of 5 days early standby (0500-1300) and at 0600 the phone rings and thaey tell you that you are off standby but your report time is 1830 for a night charter. Or at 1000 you are called for a 1400 report for lates, and so it goes on. You can expect a week of standby at least every 6 weeks along with days scattered here and there throughout your roster. You should be getting the message, Standby = Chaos. You may also be rquired to carry out Airport Standby or Backup. This choice duty means that you report and sit around in a charming little room at the airport (usually resembles a dilapidated police station interview room) and be immediately available to takeover any flight for any reason, and of course you could be required to night stop. So you walk out the door at home not knowing when you will be back.
Now add in all the other various duties, such as simulator, recurrent training and positioning to other bases and you start to see how your days are filling up in no uncertain manner.
The above is a complete generalisation and not an attempt to describe any particular company, but it could be said to be typical of many. The one thing you can rely on is that the further down the food chain the company is the more chaotic life will be and if it is higher up it doesn't mean it will be any better.
The final thing to mention is weekends off. Better to just forget them, it's easier that way.
YS

[Yellow Sun]

I think you'll find that a local night is 8 hours between 2200 and 0800 thus one could finish at 2359 hours, first local night 0000-0800, second local night 2200-0600 and then back to work at 0600, that's 30 hours and not 34 hours!

The statement regarding 34 hours was taken directly from a European shorthaul operator's Part A. It does not necessarily reflect the minimum regulatory requirement. It is merely a section of the very long piece of string.
YS

[Rainboe]

Paul, we'll try one more time! You're asking 'how long is a piece of string?' or 'how long is a long wait?'. It all depends on the airline and route pattern!

If you're dedicated to the job and into it financially, then go for it for all you're worth. And struggle to get your hours. If you have profound doubts, you will probably bitterly regret one day getting yourself on that railtrack.

There is no simple answer to your question. I'm not going to spend 30 minutes writing down your answers for my particular company- research it here!


"OK I'll try ONE MORE TIME........."

[cavortingcheetah]

This is what you asked for?

I just want to know how early (in time) before flying, you turn up to carry out flight planning and walk round checks. I was then trying to establish whether this would vary each day you fly (by being different each day) or whether there would be a pattern to calculations etc. I appreciate that passengers, baggage, fuel etc will change calculations. But if the route plane etc was the same it would get easier with time.

And then I wondered on returning home and parking, how long before you leave work and travel home.
Is the following anything remotely resembling what you are looking for?

Flying for regional UK based turbo prop operator on national and some international routes.

Leave home, butler shuts front door. Usually self drive to airport.
Thirty minutes later enter crew room, chief hostess opens that door.
Arrival at crew room timed .45 minutes minimum before scheduled departure, as per company ops.
This is usually completely unrealistic, especially in winter.
Reality dictates enter crew room before flight crew, open door myself, 1.00hrs to 1.15 hrs before scheduled departure time.
The amount of work to be done in this period never really reduces with time and familiarity.
Carry out flight, series of flights, experience delays, beat the clock.
On chocks at home base.
Usually thirty minutes, normal company ops duty allowance, suffices to deal with putting the aircraft to bed or handing over to next crew.

If night stopping the process usually takes longer before one enters hotel room. Sometimes the arrival at night stop hotel room may not be until 1.30 after chock time.
If at home base, collect car or be collected, drive or conveyed home. Usual arrival at home 1.00hrs after on chocks.

If you take a short haul regional operator such as above, it is probably true to say that for every hour flight time you put in you'll do almost another hour on the ground, one way or the other, turnarounds and so on. So your 900hrs will become something like 1800hrs. So, if you have two days off a week and thirty day's leave a year, you'll work 231 days a year? If so, then you are averaging out at around 8 hours a day. Of course, it doesn't remotely work like that. A few standby days and you'll be at work for more hours on the days you report that the 8 previously mentioned, if you're clocking in the 900 hours per moving year average.
Actally, it can be quite hard going sometimes.
Now the long haul jet chaps do far less work of course because their 900 hours entails far less on the ground time. They have a very easy life of it indeed. Besides which, generally speaking, their operations take care of such mundane matters as load sheets and general paperwork. In addition to this of course; they are paid far more on a rolling hour average and thus, since they achieve far fewer take offs and landings than the short haul pilot, earn a far better proportionate rate of danger money.
Do hope that this helps a little bit, old bean!

[Rainboe]

The longhaul chaps are generally more debonair, handsome and tanned, with a better success rate than you shorthaul turboprop types. One can tell you lot when you walk into bars, your heads are still nodding with the vibration and you can't hear the barman because you're deaf. And you're always carrying a raincoat, and there's just 2 of you. But we know you try your best. Just quietly please when you leave your room at 0530.

[cavortingcheetah]

Touché, I think!

[Mungo Man]

Hi Paul,


1) Airline- bmi

2) roster pattern - this is not fixed in my company but it is generally 5 on 2 off, sometimes 6 on 3 off. Max 3 earlies in a row.

3) hrs flying each day + total hours worked each day.
Very typically I fly 4 sectors a day, logging about 5 hrs a day, sometimes only 4 and occasionally as much as 6.5hrs flying.
Total time at work (duty time) for 4 sectors is usually about 8 hrs but can often reach 11 hrs, and sometimes exceed that if positioning as a passenger after work is required.
Sometimes we only fly 2 sectors, so about 4.5 hrs at work for 2.5 hrs flying. (We have to be in the crew room 1 hour before the first flight and we get 30 mins after the last landing to sort out the mountain of paperwork)

4) different or same flights/route each day/shift pattern.
I fly to about 10 destinations, most are flown on both earlies and lates.

I'm doing about 600hrs a year which means I spend about 1600hrs ayear at work roughly, or about 50 hrs a month flying for about 120 to 170 duty hours at work per month.

Hope this helps!

Mungo