Unfair Bonding - need advice pls!
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Unfair Bonding - need advice pls!
Last year I was offered my first job, and took it (you always take the first job...). The TR training was conducted with 2 new F/O's in the sim and so the cost of the sim was halved. It was an ATR42 rating. I was bonded for 50,000 Eur over 5 years. Now, from what I hear bonding for sums unjustified by the actual costs is illegal. I may want to consider moving on very soon, especially as I am based vary far away from my family. I would like some advice from someone who has had first hand experience of this type of situation and/or is in the aviation-legal field.
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Finish the contract, mikepops, and stop whining.
You signed the deal, now live up to it.
Far away from family?
You should have thought about this in the beginning.
Do a runner?
The company has every right to hunt you down and make you pay, legally.
Simple as that, like it or not....and I expect you don't.
Oh, boohoo....
PS. Now some folks might understand just why bonding is required by many companies...it is the likes of mikepops that make it all necessary.
You signed the deal, now live up to it.
Far away from family?
You should have thought about this in the beginning.
Do a runner?
The company has every right to hunt you down and make you pay, legally.
Simple as that, like it or not....and I expect you don't.
Oh, boohoo....
PS. Now some folks might understand just why bonding is required by many companies...it is the likes of mikepops that make it all necessary.
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Thank you for your poinless post Boohoo (you don't mid me calling you that)... You evidently have no idea what you are talking about since you use the term "legally" with reference to this case of bonding for more than the costs. I would be happy to pay what I owe but not quadruple.
Maybe you could help with oppinions on other subjects in the forum, on which you are perhaps better informed. If not just find something else to do maybe go out and have some fun once in a while if you're bored.
This also goes to all those frustrated sad cases who hijack all the threads and turn them into a slanging match about who's dog has the biggest d1ck. Grow up or find a kiddies forum.
Maybe you could help with oppinions on other subjects in the forum, on which you are perhaps better informed. If not just find something else to do maybe go out and have some fun once in a while if you're bored.
This also goes to all those frustrated sad cases who hijack all the threads and turn them into a slanging match about who's dog has the biggest d1ck. Grow up or find a kiddies forum.
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Mikepops, what did you sign? The bond you signed may not have said anything about training costs. However, like it or not you signed it and while I may not word it in quite the same way as 411A the sentiment is the same - have some integrity and work your bond.
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From what I have heard a company can bond you for the actual costs of providing the type rating. However if it cost say £10,000 and your bond is for £20,000, you have a good case of not paying the full amount if you decide to leave.
Best point is to get legal advice, and if you do leave your employer, go on good terms, as aviation is a small world!
Best point is to get legal advice, and if you do leave your employer, go on good terms, as aviation is a small world!
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You know what you signed. 'Pay up and look big' goes the old Chas and Dave song.
When you consider the costs, both direct and indirect, you will find that the sum quoted is about the going rate, perhaps top end but still not unreasonable.
The instructor costs the same as two line pilots; when he is instructing there has to be some-one flying what he would have been flying if he wasn't with you.
Did the company pay for your accomodation and travel?
Did you receive per diem whilst you were there?
And then imagine what it would cost if the company had to pay someone overtime or even cancel a flight because they had an instructor away training your replacement. This is still the actual cost.
The only reduction you can get is on a sliding scale. 50,000 / 60 months minus your service.
When you consider the costs, both direct and indirect, you will find that the sum quoted is about the going rate, perhaps top end but still not unreasonable.
The instructor costs the same as two line pilots; when he is instructing there has to be some-one flying what he would have been flying if he wasn't with you.
Did the company pay for your accomodation and travel?
Did you receive per diem whilst you were there?
And then imagine what it would cost if the company had to pay someone overtime or even cancel a flight because they had an instructor away training your replacement. This is still the actual cost.
The only reduction you can get is on a sliding scale. 50,000 / 60 months minus your service.
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Leaving does not compromise one's integrity. One would in fact not necessarily have to stay in order to still honor the agreement, because the agreement is to stay the term or to pay if leaving early.
However, what if the agreement was unfair? What if the airline took advantage of the lack of options of the pilots who were in debt, desperate for their first job and who would sign anything just to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel?... thus cashing in on their hardship and using this as a solution to their high pilot turnover?
No one can own five years of anyone's life or to force them to stay by fabricating an unjustified amount to be paid back. Not successfully anyway. Not in a democratic society. Ethical issues are actually what airlines rather than employees have been faced with in the Courts in previous cases, when the respective contracts were looked upon as "slavery" by the judges and as a result the cases were thrown out of court, from what I understand.
This is what I know so far. I would like to find out more.
Once again, would anyone with actual experience and/or expert knowledge shed some light on the subject?
Self proclaimed ethical judge, jury and executioners with no knowledge of the facts or the slightest common sense for right and wrong need not post, thank you.
Private messaging would be appreciated. It is probably be the best way to avoid providing the losers who have too much time on their hands with yet another platform for an internet version of the Jerry Springer show.
Thank you in advance.
Mike
However, what if the agreement was unfair? What if the airline took advantage of the lack of options of the pilots who were in debt, desperate for their first job and who would sign anything just to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel?... thus cashing in on their hardship and using this as a solution to their high pilot turnover?
No one can own five years of anyone's life or to force them to stay by fabricating an unjustified amount to be paid back. Not successfully anyway. Not in a democratic society. Ethical issues are actually what airlines rather than employees have been faced with in the Courts in previous cases, when the respective contracts were looked upon as "slavery" by the judges and as a result the cases were thrown out of court, from what I understand.
This is what I know so far. I would like to find out more.
Once again, would anyone with actual experience and/or expert knowledge shed some light on the subject?
Self proclaimed ethical judge, jury and executioners with no knowledge of the facts or the slightest common sense for right and wrong need not post, thank you.
Private messaging would be appreciated. It is probably be the best way to avoid providing the losers who have too much time on their hands with yet another platform for an internet version of the Jerry Springer show.
Thank you in advance.
Mike
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Sorry Mike,
But I have to agree. You signed a contract and therefore entered into an agreement which presumably permits the other party to claim damages if you breach it. It really is that simple ! The contract would presumably have been subject to the laws prevelant in the country in which the contract was drawn.
If you feel, or more importantly are properly advised that you may have a case for challenging this agreement then you would be very wise to go and seek out a properly qualified lawyer who can consider your case and the documents you hold. That person can then offer you an opinion that might better help you come to a decision.
I would be extremely wary of accepting or soliciting any advice on anonymous forums such as this, as that advice might or might not be completely wrong. Indeed you wouldn't really know until you eventually took it to a properly qualified individual at the end of the day, in any event.
There are many who will tell you tales of how this and that is "illegal", and how they or somebody they knew got out of an agreement. You would be very unwise to rely on anecdotal "evidence" of this nature in coming to a decision that might have serious and costly repercussions for you.
Telling people who have no "knowledge" not to post, is a bit rich when you yourself are using bulletin boards to aquire your information.You sound as if you want to be told what you want to hear. Professional counsel will give you an honest opinion and for that you will have to pay !
But I have to agree. You signed a contract and therefore entered into an agreement which presumably permits the other party to claim damages if you breach it. It really is that simple ! The contract would presumably have been subject to the laws prevelant in the country in which the contract was drawn.
If you feel, or more importantly are properly advised that you may have a case for challenging this agreement then you would be very wise to go and seek out a properly qualified lawyer who can consider your case and the documents you hold. That person can then offer you an opinion that might better help you come to a decision.
I would be extremely wary of accepting or soliciting any advice on anonymous forums such as this, as that advice might or might not be completely wrong. Indeed you wouldn't really know until you eventually took it to a properly qualified individual at the end of the day, in any event.
There are many who will tell you tales of how this and that is "illegal", and how they or somebody they knew got out of an agreement. You would be very unwise to rely on anecdotal "evidence" of this nature in coming to a decision that might have serious and costly repercussions for you.
Telling people who have no "knowledge" not to post, is a bit rich when you yourself are using bulletin boards to aquire your information.You sound as if you want to be told what you want to hear. Professional counsel will give you an honest opinion and for that you will have to pay !
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Put more simply, you would have to show that your bond is for significantly more than other similar bonds. It doesn't sound like it is unless it requires payment in full rather than the sliding scale previously mentioned. Disputing such a bond would only result in the sliding scale outcome anyway because you cannot deny that you have received goods or services.
You'd be wanting to mount a challenge that it is an unfair contract. The fact is though, that it isn't. You may be able to get the rating cheaper by going direct to the TRTO but you would have no garunteed job at the end.
Having a job and being paid obviously has a monetary value especially in that the company has no claim on your bond if you fail your check and are dismissed. Neither is your bond increased to cover additional training if they choose to let you have another go.
The company can produce these figures to show what the 'actual' costs have been.
As I said before Eu50,000 sounds about right so you really have no case.
Sorry.
You'd be wanting to mount a challenge that it is an unfair contract. The fact is though, that it isn't. You may be able to get the rating cheaper by going direct to the TRTO but you would have no garunteed job at the end.
Having a job and being paid obviously has a monetary value especially in that the company has no claim on your bond if you fail your check and are dismissed. Neither is your bond increased to cover additional training if they choose to let you have another go.
The company can produce these figures to show what the 'actual' costs have been.
As I said before Eu50,000 sounds about right so you really have no case.
Sorry.
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The bond is illegal if they are unable to produce a detailed breakdown of costs incurred by themselves - that is, true costs, not inflated, "internal" costs defined by themselves. These are not costs drawn up when the person leaves, but a detailed list of costs that are freely available both at the time of signing and at the time of departure.
Walk out the door, and it will be largely unenforceable - the time and expense incurred in doing so would be largely pointless.
Caveat: I am no lawyer and this is not legal advice; seek legal advice if you have the means to do so.
Walk out the door, and it will be largely unenforceable - the time and expense incurred in doing so would be largely pointless.
Caveat: I am no lawyer and this is not legal advice; seek legal advice if you have the means to do so.
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I once had cause to seek clarification of a contract and went to Beaumonts, in London, who are/were well known in the aviation field.
I got good advice on the matter I was concerned with and in more general terms they said that most employers will have had their bonding agreement passed by their own lawyers so the chances of it being illegal are slim.
If you should do a 'runner' you will be marked for life. Airline managements do stick together on this sort of thing and information will be passed by word of mouth. Remember, a bond is a contractual agreement.
In assessing it's costs the company will include all travel, accommodation and meal allowances as well as the cost of training. Should you dispute their figures you will have to employ a solicitor and the end result may be more expensive than just paying up what you owe.
I got good advice on the matter I was concerned with and in more general terms they said that most employers will have had their bonding agreement passed by their own lawyers so the chances of it being illegal are slim.
If you should do a 'runner' you will be marked for life. Airline managements do stick together on this sort of thing and information will be passed by word of mouth. Remember, a bond is a contractual agreement.
In assessing it's costs the company will include all travel, accommodation and meal allowances as well as the cost of training. Should you dispute their figures you will have to employ a solicitor and the end result may be more expensive than just paying up what you owe.
Not all contracts are legal. Just because you sign something doesn't mean you must do it. Extreme example: you can't sign a contract that allows someone else to kill you.
There have been cases in other countries where a bond was found to not be enforceable. So it is possible that you are not legally required to pay the bond if you leave early. Whether this is the case or not can not be answered by anyone other than a lawyer familiar with your specific circumstances.
All that being said. You KNEW the bonding conditions before you signed it. If you were not comfortable with them then you should have declined the job offer. And no, not EVERYONE takes the first job they stumble across.
For the record $50,000 and 5 years sounds excessive for an ATR42 (particularly the 5 years, that is an unreasonable length of time to expect someone to stay with a mid level company flying turboprops.) A B737 rating costs $35,000 Australian.
There have been cases in other countries where a bond was found to not be enforceable. So it is possible that you are not legally required to pay the bond if you leave early. Whether this is the case or not can not be answered by anyone other than a lawyer familiar with your specific circumstances.
All that being said. You KNEW the bonding conditions before you signed it. If you were not comfortable with them then you should have declined the job offer. And no, not EVERYONE takes the first job they stumble across.
For the record $50,000 and 5 years sounds excessive for an ATR42 (particularly the 5 years, that is an unreasonable length of time to expect someone to stay with a mid level company flying turboprops.) A B737 rating costs $35,000 Australian.
Está servira para distraerle.
Having been in a bonded position oneself, one does not fall into the somewhat crudely described roles of self proclaimed judge, executioner, general thorn in side or profferer of advice not in agreement with previously formulated opinions of inquirer.
So thus, for what they are worth, a few words of this and that, which, whilst not entirely being what you would like to hear are possibly worth the same cavalier attention paid so far to the most excellent words of advice preceeding these.
A lawyer is the only person who, with reference to all the paperwork, can give sensible advice.
The bond was for fifty thousand over five years. So if the job started last year, by the time you have worked your notice out that should leave a balance of about €40,000?
If you are moving on to a jet job, for instance, the differential between turbo and jet FO salaries will enable you to pay this off very speedily.
One party's perceived fairness of a contractual obligation will not necessarily make it a voidable one at law.
Avoid reneging on an airline deal. Chief Pilots really do telephone each other and it is, as said before, a much smaller world than you may think as you start out at the beginning of your career.
Bite the bullet and pay the money even if the lawyer tells you that you could avoid it. There is not doubt that if you do not, especially since your feet are just on the ladder, you will reap the consequences later on, you know, references, employment record, reasons for leaving and so on.
If you resign, having decided to pay off your bond, you might write a careful letter of resignation to the company. You might say how happy you are there, giving calm and reasonable reasons for resignation and making quite sure that the fact that you will be paying off your bond is written down.
You will almost certainly find that the company will, in any event, not be entirely pleased at your early departure, unless of course the quality of character is inherent within that demonstrated by your postings?
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The steps you take at the bottom of the ladder in any career will determine the ultimate direction in which your career will evolve. For example if you start your career by kissing butt$ and letting them shaft you because they are bigger and they talk on the telephone to each other, rather than standing up for the rights that are legally and ethically yours, said ladder will most probably take you where you will have to kiss butt$ throught your career. That sort of career doesn't suit me, it obviously suits some of the posters, like you for example. This raises the real question about who's got integrity, spine, or as you put it in your gentle, clearly non-judgemental words: "quality of character". You're just a softer, more diplomatic version of Boohoo. Get lost.
This thread has obviously degenerated into the kindergarden slanging match I most feared. However here and there very interesting and usefull bits of information have popped up and for that I thank all those inclined to be constructive and helpful.
For now I bid you all farewell and sincerely hope that some of you find peace!
This thread has obviously degenerated into the kindergarden slanging match I most feared. However here and there very interesting and usefull bits of information have popped up and for that I thank all those inclined to be constructive and helpful.
For now I bid you all farewell and sincerely hope that some of you find peace!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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"rather than standing up for the rights that are legally and ethically yours"
mikepops - if you think that walking away from your bond without paying up could be either legal or ethically correct then you should expect your former employer to ask you to prove your point in court.
Abiding by your contractual obligations is not 'kissing butt" by any stretch of the imagination, you are obviously young and with a lot still to learn, don't start out on the altogether wrong ladder.
mikepops - if you think that walking away from your bond without paying up could be either legal or ethically correct then you should expect your former employer to ask you to prove your point in court.
Abiding by your contractual obligations is not 'kissing butt" by any stretch of the imagination, you are obviously young and with a lot still to learn, don't start out on the altogether wrong ladder.
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Sounds like you've picked the wrong career then, Mikepops.
We are all whores in this business. It's just some of our lamp-posts are in a better part of town.
I still smile at the end of each month when I pull my knickers up and get paid.
We are all whores in this business. It's just some of our lamp-posts are in a better part of town.
I still smile at the end of each month when I pull my knickers up and get paid.
mikepops, the time to make a stand was before you took the job. It is then that you say, "thank you for your job offer, however your terms are unacceptable, I can do better for myself." Or you can get legal advice on the legality of the bond and then not sign it, and tell them why.
You have already been shafted. You have already kissed butt. You did that when you accepted the job and the terms and conditions. If you find out that the bond is enforceable then you are stuck aren't you?
By all means, get some legal advice and I hope that you get the answer you want. Either way though, you made your bed when you took the job.
Remember this. Those terms and conditions are there because people like you are accepting them.
BTW, did they not tell you where you were based until you got there? Was it some kind of mystery basing where they put you on a flight then you get to the destination and said, "Hey! this is your base!" Did you think your family were going to be moving closer to you? How can you be concerned about being based a long way from family when you must have known that before you took the job?
You have already been shafted. You have already kissed butt. You did that when you accepted the job and the terms and conditions. If you find out that the bond is enforceable then you are stuck aren't you?
By all means, get some legal advice and I hope that you get the answer you want. Either way though, you made your bed when you took the job.
Remember this. Those terms and conditions are there because people like you are accepting them.
BTW, did they not tell you where you were based until you got there? Was it some kind of mystery basing where they put you on a flight then you get to the destination and said, "Hey! this is your base!" Did you think your family were going to be moving closer to you? How can you be concerned about being based a long way from family when you must have known that before you took the job?
Está servira para distraerle.
Sometimes it rather be a struggle to continue an information thread in a helpful and well meaning fashion. However, rising to the challenge there is this suggestion one could make.
In assessing the costs of an ATR42 conversion it would no doubt be very useful to have an actal conversion cost quotation from a training provider. Once this has been obtained then a true cost to the airline of the training can at least be approximated. The extra costs to the airline involved in such a conversion, such as hotel bills, per diems, licence fees, salary and so on, can easily enough be estimated and factored in to the total. This final figure would be a useful one to have, either for one's own balance and sense of proportion or to produce in a courtroom with a view to substantiating the allegation that the actual cost to the airline of the training was well below that of the bond it had demanded of the prospective employee.
Perhaps you have already thought of this? Incidentally, the cost of any such additional course such as CRM, if such training were given at all, would presumably form part of the overall costs?
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Apologies, I haven't read the whole thread so someone may have already sais this, but this is not unlike the situation we now have with bank charges. Regarless that customers signed a 'contract', the fact is the charges are unfair and illegal. I'm absolutely no expert but it might correct to suggest any company seeking damages against you would have to prove the actual losses for which they are seeking to reclaim...... and they might just have a hard timing doing so.
Whether it's right or ethical to leave, well that's another question and I'll stay out of it. You would reasonabl expect to have to repay them something.
Whether it's right or ethical to leave, well that's another question and I'll stay out of it. You would reasonabl expect to have to repay them something.