Choice of aircraft

[xxx5572]

I am currently at university studying aviation management and for our first assignment we have been to select five aircraft for a an airline to use for a european operation and to compare them. The criteria are as follows:

1. The aircraft must have a minimum of 105 and no more than 135 seats in an all economy seating.
2. Each must have a range of at least 1200 nautical mile.
3. From the five aircraft to chose from one must be a Boeing another Airbus but no more than three aircraft can be of the same manufacturer.

As i have assumed that all must still be in production i have only identified three types that fit into the criteria which are:
Airbus 318 = 117 seats Range 1450 nm
Boeing 737-600 = 130 seats Range 3050 nm
Embraer 195 = 118 " " 2100 nm

If anyone could please firstly suggest any aircraft that could also be used and if so were i can get the information from?
Also if the information i have provided is incorrect then please tell me what is incorrect and were to find the correct information.
Finally does anyone have any idea roughly how much each of these cost.

Thank you for any help or advice you can give me on this subject.

[foxmoth]

I do not see why it still needs to be in production, many new start up airlines will use 2nd hand aircraft that are no longer produced as they will be cheaper, indeed I would have thought this would make a good point of comparison - new vs used.
A couple of types to look at:-
Canadair C600
RJ100

[FE Hoppy]

sukoi has a Jet in development to rival the E-Jets.

[Paul Wilson]

Of course all second hand aircraft have one HUGE advantage - you can have them now or very quickly, with any new aircraft you are looking at a several years long lead time to delivery, and a new start up will be at the back of the queue for delivery slots.

Pull a fast one over the others on your course and note this in your report, then give figures for 5 types of used aircraft. Also have a trawl through some of the sites offering planes for sale and see if you can actually BUY any of the WonderJets you decide are the best.

[panda-k-bear]

Your 737-600 and A318 figures are very much askew.

They are the exact same size in terms of seating capacity (both max out, practically, at 132 seats) and in terms of range (both at a shade over 3000nm).

If you want more details, pm me.

p-k-b

[xxx5572]

Thanks for all your ideas, i think i have finally settled for the ones for my assignment. After doing more research into each airfraft i have been corrected in that the 737 and 318 are practically the same.

PAUL WILSON - Can i ask were to find such websites that have these type of aircraft for sale, i have seen some sites but only selling private jets. Any websites would be great help.

Just as a comment, the thing ive found hardest is to actually get information from the companies, ive e mailed and called to ask but just been told 'its all on the internet' and airbus has like one page of info i get the impression no one wants to talk. oh well least have few helpful guys here to help

[panda-k-bear]

xxx You probably get the right impression - these guys are there to make and sell jets. They aren't there to act as a resource for enthusiasts, spotters, students etc. A hard fact but it's true. The information is almost crtainly on their websites if you look for it but one of the best resources is a nice, old fashioned, hard copy of Jane's All The World's Aircraft. Take a look in your library and I'm sure you'll find one!

You must also note that the 737-600 andthe A318 come with a big range of maximum take-off weights. You certainly won't need the highest ones for pootling around Europe. At a guess, a -600 with about a 132 000lb MTOW and CFM56-7B22 (22klb thrust) engines and an A318 with the 59 tonne or 61 tonne MTOW and CFM56-5B8/P or PW6122As will do you nicely.

Good luck!

[OverRun]

What about an "old" Boeing 737-300 or 737-400, configured to 130 pax. And the whole range of DC-9 derivatives - MD82 etc - I flew in the boeing version called the 717-200 the other day with 115 seats; the 5 abreast seating MD/DC9 series was very popular in the Northern European market. Fokker F100 - or is that too small?

[Paul Wilson]

Type "aircraft for sale 737" I have no idea how up to date the sites brought up are but you have Glogalplanesearch.com Aircraftbrowser.com and aircraftdealer.com. Prices are harder to come by, it seems there are loads of 737-500s, few -600s plenty of A320s a few A319s and no A318s following only a brief search. It also looks like European Aviations old BAC 1-11-500s are up for sale, guess they would be cheap and slap bang in the middle of the seating target at 119 seats and a range of 1700 miles - You're prof isn't a closet BAC 1-11 fan is he?

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by xxx5572

Thanks for all your ideas, i think i have finally settled for the ones for my assignment. After doing more research into each airfraft i have been corrected in that the 737 and 318 are practically the same.

Not sure I'd describe these two very very different aircraft (different technology, potentially different engines, different commonality philosophy) as "practically the same"

Panda-k-bear is quite right: the aircraft manufacturers' staff are not there to spend time helping on student projects - that's just the way it is. They're not charities. They will be very generous in providing detailed information, performance comparisons etc if they think there might be an aircraft sale directly resulting from it.

However if your university has a reasonable library of aviation-related magazines and journals, check out back issues of "Aircraft Commerce" which provide very good analyses of relative operating costs, while "Aircraft Value News" will give you current new and second-hand prices (not list prices - no-one pays list prices, and the discounts on list prices can be as high as 30-40% in some cases).

C.

PS I'm surprised you're not considering Avro RJs, especially (given your seating constraints) the RJ100. Enough of them available, at low enough rents to make them seem attractive to a startup even given their higher maintenance and operating costs and slower cruise, and if you hop over to the BAe Asset Management website at baeam.com you can get a sense of what's available and even run their spiffy operating cost calculator to estimate operating cost on different sectors.

[panda-k-bear]

Cyrano's right. But when you get that figure out of BAE Systems spiffy little wotsit, don't forget to double it.

[HZ123]

When you have completed your project send a copy to Willy Walsh at BA PO Box 10 Waterside Harmondsworth as we seem to have some difficulty identifying a replacement for our LGW 737's.Good luck.

[xxx5572]

After looking at all the sites and giving the lecturers a bit of grief in that many of these figures are hard to come by they printed out a so called fact sheet with the following:
A318 £27.5m
A319 £32.5M
B337-600 £30M
EMBRAER 195 £21M

Does that sound about right?? i find it rather funny that i had a lecture all about referencing your sourses the other day and how they have provided us with none. makes me wonder.
I have learnt the lesson that they dont want to particullarly talk to a student doing a uni project but i also work as a dispatcher at the airport and take quite an interest and would just be nice to know a bit about what im involved with and dont exactly have the time during a turnaround and interigate the flightdeck on vital stats and figures, plus the oh so happy captains would probably tell me to f*** off!!
Oh well il keep looking.
oh and nearly forgot to say that funny HZ123 mentioned about sending it to willie walsh as he is due to attent conference in london on 14th nov which im off to attend. il try and see what he says

[xxx5572]

Cyrano

I read through one of my replies again and think given wrong impression, what meant to say is the range of the 737-600 and A318 are practically the same. my mistake and sorry for the confusion.

[Slavedriver]

I don't have the very latest figures to hand (they are here somewhere but I can't find them under the Everest rivalling pile of paper on my desk) but these are from September.

List Prices:
B736-$50m
A318-$50m
E190 (98-108seats)-$33m
E195-$35m

Lease rate for a new airplane
B736-$250,000
A318-$235,000
E190-$245,000
E195-$258,000

CMV for a "new" airplane
B736-$30m
A318-$29
E190-$27
E195-$29

PM me if you need any other info

It's worth remembering that unless you find a leasing company that is intent on self destruction you aren't going to get a lease on a 318 (and probably a 736) because the SDE is so poor that they are not nice assets to have on the books, one reason why Scarebus have only sold 30 odd 318s.

Oh and btw where are you doing your degree? Might bump into you on the 14th!

Regards
SD

[HZ123]

CMV means please. Do the breakdowns give a seat per kilometre cost.

[Slavedriver]

Current market value

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by Slavedriver

I don't have the very latest figures to hand (they are here somewhere but I can't find them under the Everest rivalling pile of paper on my desk) but these are from September.

List Prices:
B736-$50m
A318-$50m
E190 (98-108seats)-$33m
E195-$35m

Lease rate for a new airplane
B736-$250,000
A318-$235,000
E190-$245,000
E195-$258,000

CMV for a "new" airplane
B736-$30m
A318-$29
E190-$27
E195-$29

PM me if you need any other info

Why are those CMV-s so much lower than list prices and why are those planes in production?

[xxx5572]

Looks like i have all the necessary figures for the purchase of these aircraft. Whilst i get the point of you are trying to make that its not good idea to have a 318 or 736, what is meant by SDE being so poor or what does SDE stand for.

Im at london metropolitan university, apparently will be pretty crowded when willie walsh is going to be there, will have to camp out to get a prime spot!!!