Logging "instrument" hours

[lebroix]

Just started line training in the 737

I notice that to unfreeze my fATPL I need to log a certain number of "instrument" hours. I can't remember the exact number but it is about another 10 hours on top of that which I have (minimum integrated training hours).

Am I right in thinking that seeing as all my flights are now IFR flights that they can all be logged as instrument time, or does this refer to time spent manually flying the aircraft on instruments?

I guess there is probably an obvious answer, but I'd like to make sure its right before I put ink in the book.

[Fuel Crossfeed]

Lebroix

Since getting my first job I logged all those hours as instrument time, like you say it is IFR flying. From off chocks to on chocks I put the total time in the instrument coloumn even though some of it is taxi time on the ground. I sent off the form with all the required hours and a big fat cheque!! 14 days later nice shiny green book through the post- no questions asked !! I also did not get all my p1/s hours counter signed by the Capt but the majority where.

I now wait for all the replies saying taxi time cannot be counted as IFR!!

Hope that helps FC

[underread east]

Re PICUS: I have spoken with CAA FCL department, who assure me that no Capt signatures are required to prove your hours. However, I intend to have my CP sign the last page when I send my book to say that my jet hours are an accurate representation of the hours I have flown with my company. (1st job 757 at 250TT). Your log book only requires your own signature on the bottom of each page as a testament to the fact that the entries in it are true. It is your own LEGAL declaration of the fact that your not telling porkies about it's contents.

[Treetopflyer]

As far as the JAA is concerned, "instrument time" is that time spent under an IFR flight plan.

On the other side of the pond, they do it differently: the FAA calls "instrument time" that time you spent as Pilot Flying in IMC.

TTF

[Denti]

@underread east that sounds interesting, so do you intent to declare all your FO hours flown as handling pilot as PICUS hours? Trainers in my company still claim there is a big difference and that only training pilots (TRE/TRI/RTC?) can sign PICUS hours.

[Floofy]

IFR Hours

In my understanding, you can only log the IFR hours if you do an actual/simulated instrument approach using the approach aids ie. +/- 10 mins for ILS and +/- 20 mins for NDB letdown. As i said. it is my understanding and that some countries do it differently.

[Clandestino]

Trainers in my company still claim (...) that only training pilots (TRE/TRI/RTC?) can sign PICUS hours.

Mine did the same. So I called mister Local CAA to check this out and answer was a bit revealing... about my company. To unfreeze ATPL one needs 1500TT, 500 hr multi-pilot airplane and 250 PiC. If you don't have enough PiC, you need confirmation by your trainning department that some of your copilot hours can be counted as PiCUS, there's no checking of logbooks for PiCUS entries required. Alas, my trainning department insists that TRIs are the only ones worthy of certifying PiCUS and all instructors are busy trainning attrition replacements so my ATPL is still frozen after 2300 hrs flying the line. All other companies supervised by my CAA give PiCUS certificates freely after required hours minima are met so guess who will be jumping the ship shortly.

[Fuel Crossfeed]

A Quote from my log book (CAA type, CAP407 therefore the CAA rules!!)

Part 1 instructions for use. para 7

" A pilot flying as 'pilot-in-command under supervision' shall enter flight time acquired in this manner in the 'pilot-in-command(p1)' column and 'p1(U/S)' in the 'Holders Operating Capacity' column. In each instance the Commander of the aircraft must certify the entry."

Seems its different rules according to who answers the telephone down at the Campaign Against Aviation

[Phone Wind]

lebroix,

Most regulatory authorities will have a written definition of instrument flight somewhere in their rule books. The Australian CASA, for example, in its general guidance for pilot log books states:

Instrument Flight Time All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.

This is broadly in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 and JAR FCL 1.001. Note that this does not include time flying under IFR, but only under IMC when controlling your aircraft by sole reference to instruments. Time spent VMC 'on top' is not counted, so treetopflyer is quite incorrect when he says that for the JAA instrument time is that time spent under an IFR flight plan.

The FAA definition is also on much the same lines:
US FAR rules (61.51(g)(1)) define instrument time as:

A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

May regulatory authorities, and companies, also require time spent as PICUS to be countersigned by the aircraft Commander. In my company we would not accept someone newly qualified whose log book did not contain the requisite counter-signature.

On a number of occasions we have found pilots who have falsified entries in their log-books and always taken disciplinary action and referred the details of the pilot concerned to the Authority issuing his licence.

[Centaurus]

Often see pilots with heads down while taxiing so I guess logging instrument time while taxiing is acceptable although seems a bit dodgy to me..

[Capt Fathom]

You are fooling others, but not yourself, by logging instrument time that isn't really...instrument time.
But that's what people do to get ahead. It may come back to bite them one day!
My logged instrument time is only 5% of my total hours...but who cares! I don't.

[Jinkster]

From what I understand:

You are either flying VFR or IFR!!

My Jeppessen Logbook meeting JAR-FCL 1.080 requirements has a column for IFR - not IMC.

So...I presume IFR time it is!

[Phone Wind]

jinkster,
your understanding is entirely wrong! A logbook is jsut where you record your hours in accordance with the appropriate legislation, thus under JAR, FAA or CASA as already stated, instrument timemay only be logged when the aircraft is being flown by sole reference to instruments, i.e. IMC. You may fly under IFR when the weather is CAVOK and it is plainly not instrument time. The old saying is that cheats never prosper.

[Denti]

Under JAR it is required to record your operational condition, meaning night, IFR or both, it is not required to log instrument time but you can do so just for your personal pleasure. It is not recognized in any way under JAR rules.

So yes, according to JAR-FCL 1.080 it is quite legal to log your time while being on an IFR flightplan as IFR time, you can log your instrument time if you really care in a free column.

That is quite different than it is handled in the states for example but thats european legislation for you.

[soggyboxers]

JAR FCL 1.080

(v) A remarks column will be
provided to give details of specific
functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument
flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.

[mad_jock]

The CAA seems to do things slightly differently to the rest of JAR land.

The instrument hours are usually deemed 4 hours of IFR equals 1 hour instrument time. This is referenced in the Instructor ratings.

And they take you last IR check as the ATPL test. Other countrys make you sit a seperate LST from the LHS.

The Instrument hours For the ATPL are 75 hours of which 30 can be sim time. If you have a SPA IR int I assume you will have at least 30 on the aircraft under the screens. So thats only 10 you need to gain on the multi crew aircraft. If your starting on 250 hours and apply for ATPL at 1500 hours, in that time I don't think anyone would dispute the fact you will have done 10hours instrument flying in the previous 600 hours PF time you have been flying multi crew. So is not an issue.

Night can cause problems depending on your operation. Not much you can do about that if its an issue apart from "buy" the hours in a spam can and risk life and limb.

Multi crew time won't be a problem.

And PIC...

PICUS and the logging of it seems to generate the most diverse opinions. From the your never PIC supervised or otherwise on my aircraft, to I don't give a poo where do I sign. Some companys use ATPL issue to promote to SFO with resulting pay rise others don't. The ones that do promote try and put as many blocks in your path as possible ie your not allowed to do a LPC out of phase and no logging of PICUS.

The problem occurs when others see your log book which is your own personal document and its between you and the authorities what you put into it. If you run 2 log books, a day one where you don't log anything as PICUS and an at home one where you do. You can have all your bases covered and have a backup if things go sour with your day book.

If your stuck with the company policy of banning Captains signing for PICUS you could always chance your arm if you have way over the required hours. Submit an application with a letter stating your companys policy and the problems you have getting PICUS time and stating that your claiming 10% of your multi crew time for meeting the PIC req, as PF. The worse thing that can happen is they send the money back. Mind you when your CP finds out you have been issued with one and the company has been actively trying to stop FO's being promoted to SFO's you could be in for a bit of ear ache.

The CAA could help by putting something in Lasors along the lines of 20% (or even 10%) of total multi crew time can be credited as PICUS time. And then all pilots can play to the same set of rules. The 1000 hour instructors get an ATPL after their first year on the job and 500hrs commercial experence. And some one working for 3 years and 2000+ hours can't meet the critiria.

[Denti]

@soggyboxers if you cite JAR FCL 1.080 cite it correctly. The point you cite is about the remarks column where you can, but dont have to, put in any remarks you like. One of them is instrument time which isn't necessary for anything else but your personal pleasure. You can of course put remarks in about other stuff as well, for example i note the type of non precision approaches i do and let RT/TRE/TRI sign for my PICUS time there.

If you continue to read on you will notice that you have another point,

(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR

Which has to be logged if appropriate.