Why aren't more pilots in Management Ranks (merged)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: out there somewhere...
Posts: 763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Management?
I agree with the Smokester..two sides and having been there done that, I found that the even more senior types LOVE to put roadblocks in front of the Pilot Management...lot's and lots...I went home tired more often than not, Out of it now and really happy with that!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Downunder
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Often those who apply for management jobs are exactly the kind of people who shouldn't get them, but often as not they end up there by default.
Who needs the stress and the phone calls from the other side of the world at 3 am when things start going awry?
A lot of the management pilots I know have had severe health problems.
Who needs it.
Who needs the stress and the phone calls from the other side of the world at 3 am when things start going awry?
A lot of the management pilots I know have had severe health problems.
Who needs it.
And seniority shouldn't be an issue when it comes to management either. I worked for an airline where the most senior pilots beacame managers. There were a great bunch of chaps, but their (lack of) management skills nearly sent the company under.
Whatever the situation, I guess that pilots and managers in any company are just not going to get on!
Whatever the situation, I guess that pilots and managers in any company are just not going to get on!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney NSW
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what is a good manager?
If it is just buggins' turn not a manager. We are quick to bang on about our profession of flying and the perils or otherwise of coming to it too late. If management is a true profession it requires a certain educational standard on entry, training, recognisable qualifications, professional body to be a member of if you so wish etc etc. Sound familiar?
There are those in the air force and those in airlines who intend to get their hands on the levers of power besides those found on the flight deck. For good reasons and bad. My point is that you have to treat management not so much as a career progression but a break point at which you enter your skills into a different workplace. So different that if you can't see the magnitude of change in terms of what and who you are up against you are going to struggle. Like many a latecomer to the profession of flying.
As a broad, broad generalisation those I flew with in the air force and in various civil outfits that wanted to get into management or up the promotion ladder started early with a grit and determination to do just that and with a wholeheartedness that marked them out.
By and large they got there and measure their success in terms of goals set and reached in that direction and not so much in polishing and honing aviation skills.
Sometimes we mocked those who wore the blue with wings and couldn't wait to get behind a desk. One man's meat though is another man's poison. I measure my success in terms of my big family and that I started at the bottom and made it to the top, the top being captaincy, being above average, being respected for my skill, being respected for being firm but fair. But like many pilots I did not have the killer instinct that seems to be necessary for survival in managment.
Therefore like most everybody else I've been shafted. The mayfly lives for one day only as a flying insect and wishes it knew at ten o'clock in the morning what it now knows at four o'clock in the afternoon. At my age (55) we have not only the face and physique we deserve but the managers also!
Professionally for me it is four o'clock, knocking off at five. If I could wind the hands of the watch back to 10 o'clock in my career I would grimly set myself to become a manager and evade the worst excesses being perpetrated on us. But that of course presumes that I'd be as good a manager as I eventually became a pilot. And I would not have my lovely wife of thirty years together, my children, my animals I suspect.
If I'm honest that which makes me a good pilot seems to make me a bad business manager but I do not suggest it works the same the other way about. Who am I to criticise Willie Walsh, Sir Peter Abeles or the Governor General of Australia?
End of philosophocal musing.
The "E"
There are those in the air force and those in airlines who intend to get their hands on the levers of power besides those found on the flight deck. For good reasons and bad. My point is that you have to treat management not so much as a career progression but a break point at which you enter your skills into a different workplace. So different that if you can't see the magnitude of change in terms of what and who you are up against you are going to struggle. Like many a latecomer to the profession of flying.
As a broad, broad generalisation those I flew with in the air force and in various civil outfits that wanted to get into management or up the promotion ladder started early with a grit and determination to do just that and with a wholeheartedness that marked them out.
By and large they got there and measure their success in terms of goals set and reached in that direction and not so much in polishing and honing aviation skills.
Sometimes we mocked those who wore the blue with wings and couldn't wait to get behind a desk. One man's meat though is another man's poison. I measure my success in terms of my big family and that I started at the bottom and made it to the top, the top being captaincy, being above average, being respected for my skill, being respected for being firm but fair. But like many pilots I did not have the killer instinct that seems to be necessary for survival in managment.
Therefore like most everybody else I've been shafted. The mayfly lives for one day only as a flying insect and wishes it knew at ten o'clock in the morning what it now knows at four o'clock in the afternoon. At my age (55) we have not only the face and physique we deserve but the managers also!
Professionally for me it is four o'clock, knocking off at five. If I could wind the hands of the watch back to 10 o'clock in my career I would grimly set myself to become a manager and evade the worst excesses being perpetrated on us. But that of course presumes that I'd be as good a manager as I eventually became a pilot. And I would not have my lovely wife of thirty years together, my children, my animals I suspect.
If I'm honest that which makes me a good pilot seems to make me a bad business manager but I do not suggest it works the same the other way about. Who am I to criticise Willie Walsh, Sir Peter Abeles or the Governor General of Australia?
End of philosophocal musing.
The "E"
Paxing All Over The World
Looking at other lines of work and workplaces, I would suggest that the skills that make a good pilot will be different from what makes a good manager. It is often the case that a company has a top rate Salesman and then promote him to Sales Manager. In one simple action they have lost their best Salesman and got a lousy Manager.
Form what I have seen of pilots, they like to be independent and the problem with being a manager is that, there is always someone above you. Even when you are chairman of the board, there are the shareholders. Pilots don't like being told what to do therefore, I have the temerity to suggest, not many of them would make good managers.
Form what I have seen of pilots, they like to be independent and the problem with being a manager is that, there is always someone above you. Even when you are chairman of the board, there are the shareholders. Pilots don't like being told what to do therefore, I have the temerity to suggest, not many of them would make good managers.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well the point of my posting was that why aren't more pilots trying to get into management to fix things that are wrong. All too often I have heard complaints on how management does not know what they are doing and how they are out to screw all the pilots etc. etc. If we had more pilots join management ranks maybe there would be a better perspective on things and hopefully some teambuilding.
This is probably the only industry where managers read books on Warfare to try and run the business!
This is probably the only industry where managers read books on Warfare to try and run the business!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airlines with Good Labor-Management Relations
Apart from Southwest in the US are there any airlines where Labor and management are on the same page and not at war with each other the whole time.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney NSW
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I shall translate
When I was a pilot and when I was a manager I looked for certain qualities, amongst them the ability to make correct decisions quickly, good judgment, leadership, managerial qualities.
Flying and management are alike in this respect that the sooner you make a start the sooner you know if you are going to make a mark other than a smoking whole in the ground.
I am not worthy, I shall RTFQ more clearly in future.
Flying and management are alike in this respect that the sooner you make a start the sooner you know if you are going to make a mark other than a smoking whole in the ground.
I am not worthy, I shall RTFQ more clearly in future.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: adelaide
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
did you lose out?
When you left management to go back to flying it was as an SFO and not as a captain. Did "management" suffer you to lose pay? Sorry to be personal but it is important if others are to follow.
I call you back
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alpha quadrant
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason a lot of pilots turn out to be terrible managers is simply that they stop flying. The longer they are a manager the less in touch they are with those they are trying to manage ( Leo must have been appointed in Roman times ).
It is difficult to respect a manager who has forgotten what your 6th early start in a row is like and questions your integrity when you announce you are knackered.
It is difficult to respect a manager who has forgotten what your 6th early start in a row is like and questions your integrity when you announce you are knackered.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: world
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I disagree that ex Pilot "managers" lose touch. I believe it is all to do with expectations. As a line pilot I strove for 100% accuracy in all I did. I did in fact manage to miss flying in to all the hills that came near to my airplane, therefore I claim success.
As a manager I strove for a realistic 80% success rate. I managed to please most of the people, but not all. I similarly claim success. I also managed to get the odd spelling mistake in my communications as a manager, together with the odd full stop incorrectly placed. For this I apologise profusely.
At no time did I forget my upbringing as a line pilot. But I did gain a very different perspective.
Fly safely - it is all our interests.
As a manager I strove for a realistic 80% success rate. I managed to please most of the people, but not all. I similarly claim success. I also managed to get the odd spelling mistake in my communications as a manager, together with the odd full stop incorrectly placed. For this I apologise profusely.
At no time did I forget my upbringing as a line pilot. But I did gain a very different perspective.
Fly safely - it is all our interests.
