interpretation of 121.615
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interpretation of 121.615
FAR 121.615 Interpretation
I need an interpretation of FAR 121.615:
Sec. 121.615 - Dispatch or flight release over water: Flag and supplemental operations.
(a) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for a flight that involves extended overwater operation unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate airport.
The point I need interpreted is the second “or” in the phrase – “at the estimated time of arrival at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate airport.”
Does this mean that you may dispatch to a field that is estimated to be below landing minimums so long as your alternate is forecast to be above minimums?
I only need an answer on this from a US Air Carrier Operations point of view – I’m interested in how JAROPS does it – but not right now. Also – please answer this only if you know the answer and can support it with either a legal FAA interpretation or you are operating as an Air Carrier and using this FAR to dispatch to a field below minimums – or your company does not dispatch to below minimum fields because you interpret the FAR to mean that you need both.
Also – don’t mention 3585 – this is FLAG rules we are talking about and we are talking about the body of the WX report – not conditional WX.
Again – please don’t tell me what you think – tell me what you know based on an operational policy of a good Air Carrier or a FAA legal interpretation of this FAR – and include the reference please.
Thanks for any information,
LL
I need an interpretation of FAR 121.615:
Sec. 121.615 - Dispatch or flight release over water: Flag and supplemental operations.
(a) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for a flight that involves extended overwater operation unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate airport.
The point I need interpreted is the second “or” in the phrase – “at the estimated time of arrival at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate airport.”
Does this mean that you may dispatch to a field that is estimated to be below landing minimums so long as your alternate is forecast to be above minimums?
I only need an answer on this from a US Air Carrier Operations point of view – I’m interested in how JAROPS does it – but not right now. Also – please answer this only if you know the answer and can support it with either a legal FAA interpretation or you are operating as an Air Carrier and using this FAR to dispatch to a field below minimums – or your company does not dispatch to below minimum fields because you interpret the FAR to mean that you need both.
Also – don’t mention 3585 – this is FLAG rules we are talking about and we are talking about the body of the WX report – not conditional WX.
Again – please don’t tell me what you think – tell me what you know based on an operational policy of a good Air Carrier or a FAA legal interpretation of this FAR – and include the reference please.
Thanks for any information,
LL
Maybe not that easy!
LOKE,
I see what you mean about that last "OR". I suspect you may not find anything that will definitively settle the meaning of that "OR". Did they really mean "AND"? You have to wonder why they would require you to declare an alternate that meets alternate wx mins and then allow dispatch when it does not. Contradictory. Read the first two pages of the following document (part of the air carrier operations inspector's handbook) and let me know what you think then.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...3/3_006_04.pdf
Pay particular attention to section 1233(F).
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Westhawk
I see what you mean about that last "OR". I suspect you may not find anything that will definitively settle the meaning of that "OR". Did they really mean "AND"? You have to wonder why they would require you to declare an alternate that meets alternate wx mins and then allow dispatch when it does not. Contradictory. Read the first two pages of the following document (part of the air carrier operations inspector's handbook) and let me know what you think then.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...3/3_006_04.pdf
Pay particular attention to section 1233(F).
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Westhawk
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<<Does this mean that you may dispatch to a field that is estimated to be below landing minimums so long as your alternate is forecast to be above minimums?>>
Yes, altho in this case two alternates are generally required.
This would be indicated in the respective air carriers individual operations specifications.
In addition, in the above listed case, and also depending on the specific wording of the ops specs, enroute re-dispatch might not be allowed.
The FAA gives their aircarrier inspectors rather broad latitude with respect to an individual airline's operations specifications.
Yes, altho in this case two alternates are generally required.
This would be indicated in the respective air carriers individual operations specifications.
In addition, in the above listed case, and also depending on the specific wording of the ops specs, enroute re-dispatch might not be allowed.
The FAA gives their aircarrier inspectors rather broad latitude with respect to an individual airline's operations specifications.
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FAR 121.615
§121.615 Dispatch or flight release over water: Flag and supplemental operations.
(a) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for a flight that involves extended overwater operation unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate airport.
You appear to already have this, but here is the link anyway:
http://ecfrback.access.gpo.gov/otcgi...Sec.%20121.615
My Ops Manual discusses this under the paragraph "Extended Overwater Dispatch." It says," A flight may be dispatched for overwater operations to a destination forecast below landing minimums provided the filed alternate airport meets alternate weather requirements." This is reinforced during our annual International Ops Specs training.
This appears to be standard for all scheduled US Flag Ops manuals.
(a) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for a flight that involves extended overwater operation unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate airport.
You appear to already have this, but here is the link anyway:
http://ecfrback.access.gpo.gov/otcgi...Sec.%20121.615
My Ops Manual discusses this under the paragraph "Extended Overwater Dispatch." It says," A flight may be dispatched for overwater operations to a destination forecast below landing minimums provided the filed alternate airport meets alternate weather requirements." This is reinforced during our annual International Ops Specs training.
This appears to be standard for all scheduled US Flag Ops manuals.
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411 - Ops Specs Authorization to dispatch
411A:
From 8400
SECTION 4. PART 121 FLAG OPERATIONS, SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS OUTSIDE THE CONTIGUOUS STATES, AND EXTENDED OVERWATER OPERATIONS
1231. DESTINATION WEATHER MINIMUMS.
Part 121, section 121.615(a) states the following: “No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for a flight that involves extended overwater operation unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival (ETA) at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate.” This regulation has been interpreted by the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Chief Council (AGC) to mean that weather conditions must be forecasted to be above the required minimums at the ETA, but the weather conditions do not necessarily have to be above the required minimums at the time of dispatch or release.
By this statement in 8400 it seems clear that on the basis of 121.615 alone, you may not dispatch to a field Overwater Ops it the forecast WX at ETA is below minimums. I realize that many FARs are superseded by the Ops Specs – case in point – the ETOPS authorization after FAR 121 clearly says you can’t do it.
You state, or imply, that authorization to fly to a destination forecast to be below landing minimums could be granted via Ops Specs. Would the Ops Spec you are referring to be B044. If not, could you advise which Ops Spec could be used for this purpose.
Thanks for your informative reply,
LL
From 8400
SECTION 4. PART 121 FLAG OPERATIONS, SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS OUTSIDE THE CONTIGUOUS STATES, AND EXTENDED OVERWATER OPERATIONS
1231. DESTINATION WEATHER MINIMUMS.
Part 121, section 121.615(a) states the following: “No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for a flight that involves extended overwater operation unless appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the authorized minimums at the estimated time of arrival (ETA) at any airport to which dispatched or released or to any required alternate.” This regulation has been interpreted by the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Chief Council (AGC) to mean that weather conditions must be forecasted to be above the required minimums at the ETA, but the weather conditions do not necessarily have to be above the required minimums at the time of dispatch or release.
By this statement in 8400 it seems clear that on the basis of 121.615 alone, you may not dispatch to a field Overwater Ops it the forecast WX at ETA is below minimums. I realize that many FARs are superseded by the Ops Specs – case in point – the ETOPS authorization after FAR 121 clearly says you can’t do it.
You state, or imply, that authorization to fly to a destination forecast to be below landing minimums could be granted via Ops Specs. Would the Ops Spec you are referring to be B044. If not, could you advise which Ops Spec could be used for this purpose.
Thanks for your informative reply,
LL
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Normally speaking, Loke, the authorization to dispatch to a destination that is forecasted to be below landing minima at ETA is covered by the proviso of two alternates being available, that meet the alternate filing requirements, and are forecasted to remain so.
Ops specs will then specify the fuel to be carried, and the requirement for dedicated flight following to remain available.
Generally, this provision is granted to an airline after they have demonstrated a favorable operational record, and it is the decision of the principal operations inspector assigned, as to whether this exception to the normally accepted regulations is allowed.
It is not granted lightly.
The specific section to which this exception is allowed is unclear.
A definitive answer could be obtained from an FAA inspector.
It has been quite a long time since I flew for an FAA supplemental carrier and, to the best of my knowledge, only six of the original supplemental carriers were granted this exemption.
Ops specs will then specify the fuel to be carried, and the requirement for dedicated flight following to remain available.
Generally, this provision is granted to an airline after they have demonstrated a favorable operational record, and it is the decision of the principal operations inspector assigned, as to whether this exception to the normally accepted regulations is allowed.
It is not granted lightly.
The specific section to which this exception is allowed is unclear.
A definitive answer could be obtained from an FAA inspector.
It has been quite a long time since I flew for an FAA supplemental carrier and, to the best of my knowledge, only six of the original supplemental carriers were granted this exemption.
Last edited by 411A; 8th Dec 2005 at 10:54.
