Trust levers during F/O take-off
Only half a speed-brake
Our policy is that it is the commander's decision to abort the take-off or call go. So captain takes over the thrust levers as soon as they are advanced to the forward position, even if the rotors are still spooling up.
However it is the -4/500 series, I have no idea if they are any different.
FD
(the un-real)
However it is the -4/500 series, I have no idea if they are any different.
FD
(the un-real)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OTOH, I have personally flown with two operators of heavy jets (B707 and Lockheed TriStar) where the First Officer was trained to make a proper abort (and, when not too) and oddly enougth, many of these guys (and gals) had been seconded from BA...and QF.
Especially the latter.
Very competant folks...these.
IF you train 'em right, good results are generally obtained.
Surprise, surprise.
Especially the latter.
Very competant folks...these.
IF you train 'em right, good results are generally obtained.
Surprise, surprise.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: United states
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A
Obviously you have been flying with the Mickey Mouse club when it comes to procedures. As a B-707 instructor I have never seen an operations manual which describes a procedure for a F/O preforming an abort. Although we regurally taught this maneouver to F/Os in the simulator, it was never allowed on the line. The procedure was that was generally adopted by all operators was that the power was set by 80k at which time the captain's hand was on the throttles. If a abort was initiated, the captain only would retart the throttles, deploy the speed brake, and reverse the engines; maintaining directional control with nose wheel steering and differential power. The F/O would push full forward on the control column to aid in nose wheel steering, call out reducing airspeeds and announce the abort to ATC. This same procedure is similary duplicated in most other heavy aircraft that I have flown. Allowing a F/O iniating to abort a T/O on an icey / wet runway with an engine failure and reversing the engines while the captain tried to maintain directional control, deploy the speed brake and push the control column forward for better nose wheel steering while simultaneously steering the A/C would be a recepie for some very creative writing on the part of that flight crew.
Obviously you have been flying with the Mickey Mouse club when it comes to procedures. As a B-707 instructor I have never seen an operations manual which describes a procedure for a F/O preforming an abort. Although we regurally taught this maneouver to F/Os in the simulator, it was never allowed on the line. The procedure was that was generally adopted by all operators was that the power was set by 80k at which time the captain's hand was on the throttles. If a abort was initiated, the captain only would retart the throttles, deploy the speed brake, and reverse the engines; maintaining directional control with nose wheel steering and differential power. The F/O would push full forward on the control column to aid in nose wheel steering, call out reducing airspeeds and announce the abort to ATC. This same procedure is similary duplicated in most other heavy aircraft that I have flown. Allowing a F/O iniating to abort a T/O on an icey / wet runway with an engine failure and reversing the engines while the captain tried to maintain directional control, deploy the speed brake and push the control column forward for better nose wheel steering while simultaneously steering the A/C would be a recepie for some very creative writing on the part of that flight crew.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada and UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I don't often side with 411A. But if having the First Officer handle a rejected takeoff is considered Mickey Mouse Club stuff, please pass the little beanie cap with ears.
I fly 747s for a major carrier, and most of the time I can be found in the right hand seat. Certainly I'm there for takeoff.
Our SOPs involve the handling pilot closing the thrust levers (his/her hands are on them until V1). The non-handler deploys reverse and checks the speedbrake.
For a First Officer's takeoff, we brief that the Captain will take over at a suitable low-speed stage, to stop the aircraft. In my brief I always include the idea that if the Captain does not positively take control, I will bring the aircraft to a halt and set the parking brake (and we won't leave the reversers on, right everyone?).
It is true that some aircraft have no tiller on the FO's side. That might make a difference to your SOPs for handling takeoffs and rejected takeoffs.
It seems to me that a "handling pilot" should be just that. A few moments of confusion as to who is actually handling the aircraft would use up a lot of runway close to V1. However whatever the SOP, the most important thing is that everyone sticks to the SOP. What DOES strike me as genuinely Mickey Mouse is the idea that the Captain would do different things (in a critical situation!) for different first officers.
Smudge
I fly 747s for a major carrier, and most of the time I can be found in the right hand seat. Certainly I'm there for takeoff.
Our SOPs involve the handling pilot closing the thrust levers (his/her hands are on them until V1). The non-handler deploys reverse and checks the speedbrake.
For a First Officer's takeoff, we brief that the Captain will take over at a suitable low-speed stage, to stop the aircraft. In my brief I always include the idea that if the Captain does not positively take control, I will bring the aircraft to a halt and set the parking brake (and we won't leave the reversers on, right everyone?).
It is true that some aircraft have no tiller on the FO's side. That might make a difference to your SOPs for handling takeoffs and rejected takeoffs.
It seems to me that a "handling pilot" should be just that. A few moments of confusion as to who is actually handling the aircraft would use up a lot of runway close to V1. However whatever the SOP, the most important thing is that everyone sticks to the SOP. What DOES strike me as genuinely Mickey Mouse is the idea that the Captain would do different things (in a critical situation!) for different first officers.
Smudge
Moderator
While not wanting to express a view, and not having flown such aircraft, I have been briefed in the past that some of the older types needed both pilots to be actively involved in an abort, especially in crosswind conditions ?
The question is really who makes the decision to abort not who carries it out. IMHO that decision should rest with one person only as there is no time to have a committee meeting about it and that person should be the commander of the aircraft. You have to have one set of SOPs and an inexperienced pilot with perhaps only 3-400 hours and on their first few months flying a large aircraft is not equipped to make the decision.
In our company if the Captain is PNF they guard the thrust levers during the roll and then take control if they have called stop. Personally I would prefer the PF to keep control of the aircraft with the Captain, who is holding the levers anyway selecting reverse, it seems an easier way to do it rather than grabbing an aircraft that may be starting to swing with an engine out or have other control problems.
In our company if the Captain is PNF they guard the thrust levers during the roll and then take control if they have called stop. Personally I would prefer the PF to keep control of the aircraft with the Captain, who is holding the levers anyway selecting reverse, it seems an easier way to do it rather than grabbing an aircraft that may be starting to swing with an engine out or have other control problems.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Boeing 737-200 Operation Manual, date 11/1994, a little old, yes, but still Boeing, it is clearly stated that the thrust levers a guarded by the pilot flying. The new Operation Manual changed this. But I don’t know if the change was made by the Company or by Mr. Boeing.
And this you can read on B-747-200 Flight Crew Training Manual, also a little old but, as I know, still current: “The pilot flying should keep one hand on the thrust levers until V1 so that he can respond quickly to a rejected takeoff condition”.
And this you can read on B-747-200 Flight Crew Training Manual, also a little old but, as I know, still current: “The pilot flying should keep one hand on the thrust levers until V1 so that he can respond quickly to a rejected takeoff condition”.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: where the sun shine
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
in my company, co-pilot must follow a sim check. R/H seat T/O. After 1 year.
Before It was the f/o who was handling the thrust levers before V1 until a F/o f
a T/O. Then it was again L/H seat.
Hope it can help. For info Bae 146.....
Fly high
Pico
Before It was the f/o who was handling the thrust levers before V1 until a F/o f
a T/O. Then it was again L/H seat.Hope it can help. For info Bae 146.....
Fly high
Pico
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: United states
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smudge
The original question was " Whose hands are on the thrust levers after 80 kts during a F/O take-off?". NOT, what is briefed or not briefed; allowed due experience, or not allowed due to other considerations. Line flying always has many variations that may deviate from strict company policy. However, as Max Angle points out, SOPs dictate who will make the decision to abort and this is the reason that procedures are written in the manual. In my experience from flying several types including the B-747, I have not yet seen a procedure from Boeing where the F/O controls the aircraft and decides the corse of action to be taken with an engine loss on T/O. Perhaps the F/Os you fly with are all have fantastic experience, but in the aviation community I am used to dealing with, especially in recent years, this has not been the case and I will continue to guard the power on take-off.
The original question was " Whose hands are on the thrust levers after 80 kts during a F/O take-off?". NOT, what is briefed or not briefed; allowed due experience, or not allowed due to other considerations. Line flying always has many variations that may deviate from strict company policy. However, as Max Angle points out, SOPs dictate who will make the decision to abort and this is the reason that procedures are written in the manual. In my experience from flying several types including the B-747, I have not yet seen a procedure from Boeing where the F/O controls the aircraft and decides the corse of action to be taken with an engine loss on T/O. Perhaps the F/Os you fly with are all have fantastic experience, but in the aviation community I am used to dealing with, especially in recent years, this has not been the case and I will continue to guard the power on take-off.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eggplant walking
As a B-707 instructor I have never seen an operations manual which describes a procedure for a F/O preforming an abort.
BA for example practice total role reversal - on his/her sector the FO will taxy, set take-off thrust and have their hand on the PLs to V1.
For the record, they are also permitted to command a "STOP" as well. the theory being that if they are fit to be on your flight deck then they are fit to handle the power levers. My opinion is that this is good practice - treat the FO like the grown up that they are.
My recollection of Britannia and MyTravel is the same.
Max Angle
IMHO that decision should rest with one person only as there is no time to have a committee meeting about it and that person should be the commander of the aircraft.
A decision to reject is then delayed as the FO brings it to the Capt's attention so that he can think about it.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would rather make one hundred unnecessary stops from below V1 than once take an aeroplane into the air after V1 when I should not have.
The only safe place for a sick aeroplane is on the ground with the parking brake applied and a problem that occurs 4 seconds before V1 but which (because of the delay in making the decision) does not lead to the required RTO places you outside the engine-out performance envelope.
The only safe place for a sick aeroplane is on the ground with the parking brake applied and a problem that occurs 4 seconds before V1 but which (because of the delay in making the decision) does not lead to the required RTO places you outside the engine-out performance envelope.
The problem with that argument is that only one unnecessary stop from just below V1 could result in total loss of the aircraft and injured or dead passengers, stopping is NOT the safe option some people assume it is. Apart from engine failure/fire below V1 or say a control jam or restriction that will prevent flight it is almost always safer to get airbourne than stop once you are into the high speed part of the take-off. I quite agree that the only place for a sick aircraft is on the ground with park brake set but the safest way to get there is usually to fly a circuit and do your high speed stopping from the start of the runway not two thirds of the way down it.
Junior trash
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an FO in one of the aforementiond companies i can only call stop for 5 items with Captain HP and 7 if I am. Captain can always call stop or continue for any other failiure. The only difference is what happens after. What about in blocked runway/loss of control case, Captain NHP, looking in, FO handling looking out, who's hands will close the levers faster?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air UK/KLM uk/KLM Cityhopper etc... The PF has their hands on the knobs and buttons. Either pilot calls stop. The other reacts. Only when stopped (or nearly stopped) does any form of change of control take place. I recon that for what we fly, that is a reasonable system. If matey boy/girl calls incorrectly, then so be it - but I have generally found that the brain in the other seat works a damn site quicker than mine. So far, so good!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eggplantwalking - nope, we drive on the left, which IS the right side!
Seriously, does anyone else notice the difference in philosophy between the East and West sides of the Atlantic? This side we trust our FOs, on the other side they don't. Maybe it's because in the USA the FOs only have FAA licences so are not to be trusted!!!
Seriously, does anyone else notice the difference in philosophy between the East and West sides of the Atlantic? This side we trust our FOs, on the other side they don't. Maybe it's because in the USA the FOs only have FAA licences so are not to be trusted!!!