Airline operating illegally
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Airline operating illegally
If one had knowledge of an airline operating illegally into UK airports, that is an airline in direct contravention of its own operations manuals ( this contravention sanctioned by senior management) what would be the relevant department (email address) to contact within the UK CAA
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This ought to be a good one as it unfolds.
This topic came up just last night in discussion with fellow pilot in the USA.
I am sure we all know of wrong doings within this colorful industry, and would love to shed some light to the proper authorities about certain issues, but as I understand it, most go unchecked even when exposed and ultimately can destroy ones career.
Happy flying
I am sure we all know of wrong doings within this colorful industry, and would love to shed some light to the proper authorities about certain issues, but as I understand it, most go unchecked even when exposed and ultimately can destroy ones career.
Happy flying
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...or you could go to
CAA Safety Regulation Group e-mail contact list
If you are at a UK licenced aerodrome and you think that there is an aircraft on the ground that should not fly for safety reasons, then you should see if there is anyone there who can detain it. There usually is at major aerodromes. Start with Air Traffic, they should know how to put you in touch with them.
If you have knowledge that could have prevented an aircraft crashing but did nothing about it, you may be considered as liable as those directly responsible.
On the other hand, if you maliciously make a false statement about a safety (or security) issue then you could also be liable for prosecution, so carefully examine your motives for your actions.
However, no-one will ever criticise someone who makes a mis-statement with good intent. For instance, the person in the car park who is convinced they saw something fall off an aircraft, causing an all-day but fruitless search, will probably be OK but the telephone bomb hoaxer will almost certainly go to jail (in the UK).
Cheers,
TheOddOne
CAA Safety Regulation Group e-mail contact list
If you are at a UK licenced aerodrome and you think that there is an aircraft on the ground that should not fly for safety reasons, then you should see if there is anyone there who can detain it. There usually is at major aerodromes. Start with Air Traffic, they should know how to put you in touch with them.
If you have knowledge that could have prevented an aircraft crashing but did nothing about it, you may be considered as liable as those directly responsible.
On the other hand, if you maliciously make a false statement about a safety (or security) issue then you could also be liable for prosecution, so carefully examine your motives for your actions.
However, no-one will ever criticise someone who makes a mis-statement with good intent. For instance, the person in the car park who is convinced they saw something fall off an aircraft, causing an all-day but fruitless search, will probably be OK but the telephone bomb hoaxer will almost certainly go to jail (in the UK).
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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If you have knowledge that could have prevented an aircraft crashing but did nothing about it, you may be considered as liable as those directly responsible.
On the other hand, if you maliciously make a false statement about a safety (or security) issue then you could also be liable for prosecution, so carefully examine your motives for your actions.
On the other hand, if you maliciously make a false statement about a safety (or security) issue then you could also be liable for prosecution, so carefully examine your motives for your actions.
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Try a LGW based franchise
Illegal operation also relates to working crew over legal hours... this happens a lot within almost all the airlines with staff shortages (i.e. All of them for the time being).
Itīs an eye opener to see how newly recruits are exploited and intimidated to work over the legal hours, or to report for flights when either unfit or simply off duty. This activity is to be reported to the CAA authority, because as mentioned above, should there be a problem during the flight, you accepted to go on duty (and "I didnīt know is not a excuse in the eyes of the law)...
Itīs an eye opener to see how newly recruits are exploited and intimidated to work over the legal hours, or to report for flights when either unfit or simply off duty. This activity is to be reported to the CAA authority, because as mentioned above, should there be a problem during the flight, you accepted to go on duty (and "I didnīt know is not a excuse in the eyes of the law)...
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I believe the appropriate CAA branch is Flight Operations - Quality Assurance at Gatwick who handle inspections of all non UK operators - they in turn pass their findings to DETR and the operators own authority
Safety Regulation Group
Civil Aviation Authority
Aviation House
Gatwick Airport South
West Sussex RH6 0YR
T: 01293 567171
Safety Regulation Group
Civil Aviation Authority
Aviation House
Gatwick Airport South
West Sussex RH6 0YR
T: 01293 567171
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ILS26,
I would be interested to know what you are referring to ? You say crews work "over legal hours" what do you mean ? Crews can work longer than the FTL table limits if the Captain excercises discretion. This may allow for anything up to an additional 3 hours on the planning FTL limits. That is not illegal. FTL can be a complex subject and it is worth reading your companies operations manual from time to time, so that you are better aware of what is permissable in various situations. I would be the first to admit that the subject can be difficult, but I doubt that crews are actually working illegally, since it would fall squarely on the captains shoulders in most instances. Few captains are easily intimidated. Of course any extension of a duty period should require a corresponding increase in the subsequent rest period.
Being "fit to go on duty" is normally a decision for the individual. If you feel you are not fit, then you phone in sick. Of course sickness does often put pressure on the crewing department which in turn falls back on the remaining crew. If you fly when unfit to do so, then you are in violation of the rules and of course it is then you that are operating illegally. operating while off duty is of course not possible, since you would be on duty. Working on a planned "day off" is also not illegal provided the overall limits as laid down in the FTL scheme are not violated. Normally it is up to the individual to agree to surrender such a day.
I do appreciate that in the real world there is often considerable pressure applied to work beyond the planned limits often at short notice. In reality there is a good deal of flexibilty in the companies FTL schemes as agreed with the authority, that permits this. Obviously it is not acceptable to undertake any duty that is actually outside the rules and it is incumbent on both the operator and the crewmember to ensure this does not happen. In my experience few crewmembers and particularly cabin crew do take the trouble to properly understand the rules. If you are in any doubt ask. If you are not satisfied ask the operating Captain ( before departure).
Finally, any real violation is not acceptable. If this happens then you can certainly report the matter to the authority, or if you wish to CHIRP, the confidential reporting body at Farnborough. I have to say though that I would be very surprised if an operator was electing to act outside of the law. Usually the real problem is an individuals perception of what the law actually is.
I would be interested to know what you are referring to ? You say crews work "over legal hours" what do you mean ? Crews can work longer than the FTL table limits if the Captain excercises discretion. This may allow for anything up to an additional 3 hours on the planning FTL limits. That is not illegal. FTL can be a complex subject and it is worth reading your companies operations manual from time to time, so that you are better aware of what is permissable in various situations. I would be the first to admit that the subject can be difficult, but I doubt that crews are actually working illegally, since it would fall squarely on the captains shoulders in most instances. Few captains are easily intimidated. Of course any extension of a duty period should require a corresponding increase in the subsequent rest period.
Being "fit to go on duty" is normally a decision for the individual. If you feel you are not fit, then you phone in sick. Of course sickness does often put pressure on the crewing department which in turn falls back on the remaining crew. If you fly when unfit to do so, then you are in violation of the rules and of course it is then you that are operating illegally. operating while off duty is of course not possible, since you would be on duty. Working on a planned "day off" is also not illegal provided the overall limits as laid down in the FTL scheme are not violated. Normally it is up to the individual to agree to surrender such a day.
I do appreciate that in the real world there is often considerable pressure applied to work beyond the planned limits often at short notice. In reality there is a good deal of flexibilty in the companies FTL schemes as agreed with the authority, that permits this. Obviously it is not acceptable to undertake any duty that is actually outside the rules and it is incumbent on both the operator and the crewmember to ensure this does not happen. In my experience few crewmembers and particularly cabin crew do take the trouble to properly understand the rules. If you are in any doubt ask. If you are not satisfied ask the operating Captain ( before departure).
Finally, any real violation is not acceptable. If this happens then you can certainly report the matter to the authority, or if you wish to CHIRP, the confidential reporting body at Farnborough. I have to say though that I would be very surprised if an operator was electing to act outside of the law. Usually the real problem is an individuals perception of what the law actually is.
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Hi Bealzebub,
I agree with the points you mention and on how complex Flying Time Limitations can be. Therefore, I understand that flying extra hours on the chart in order to bring the aircraft back to home base is a reasonable and legal decision. Therefore, the following situations have occured in my airline and I question their legality :
1) Knowing you are going into discretion from home base on a 4 sector day
2) Being called out of stand by when you stand by hours are over.
3) If your stand by duty is from 6am to 12pm, being called out at 11am to operate a flight checking in at 15pm.
4) Being given only 10 hours rest at home base between flying duties
5) Working 5 days on, having only one day off (which doesn't include 2 local nights) and working an addition 4 days on with 2 days off after this shift.
6) Having a roster change with less than 12 hours notification, with no choice given.
7) Going into discretion, flying a total of 15 hours (due to diversion purposes in one of the tricky destinations this airline flies too) and not given 15 hours rest at home base.
I could go on because all these activity takes place, and the sad thing is, crewing exercise this on new recruits who are not aware of FTL and their rights relating to Crew rest. I have tried to put forward to the union to request an additional training day in the initial crew course in order to mention FTL, but the airline doesn't really like the idea.... wonder why ?
I agree with the points you mention and on how complex Flying Time Limitations can be. Therefore, I understand that flying extra hours on the chart in order to bring the aircraft back to home base is a reasonable and legal decision. Therefore, the following situations have occured in my airline and I question their legality :
1) Knowing you are going into discretion from home base on a 4 sector day
2) Being called out of stand by when you stand by hours are over.
3) If your stand by duty is from 6am to 12pm, being called out at 11am to operate a flight checking in at 15pm.
4) Being given only 10 hours rest at home base between flying duties
5) Working 5 days on, having only one day off (which doesn't include 2 local nights) and working an addition 4 days on with 2 days off after this shift.
6) Having a roster change with less than 12 hours notification, with no choice given.
7) Going into discretion, flying a total of 15 hours (due to diversion purposes in one of the tricky destinations this airline flies too) and not given 15 hours rest at home base.
I could go on because all these activity takes place, and the sad thing is, crewing exercise this on new recruits who are not aware of FTL and their rights relating to Crew rest. I have tried to put forward to the union to request an additional training day in the initial crew course in order to mention FTL, but the airline doesn't really like the idea.... wonder why ?
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It is a complex subject ILS26L and there are slightly different rules for flight deck crew and cabin crew. To answer your questions, you must properly consult your own companies operations manual, since there may be variations. I will try and answer your questions broadly.
1) Popular misconception this one. It is perfectly OK for the captain to excercise discretion from any base even before the first sector has started if he elects to do so. That discretion may be up to 2 hours ( normally) for the first and subsequent sectors, but may be up to 3 hours for a single sector flight or prior to the last sector of a multi sector flight. So yes this perfectly legal.
2) Standby is a duty period and the calculation of hours becomes slightly more complex depending on whether or not you are called out from it. There are maximum limits set on how long a standby duty can be ( 12hours) however if a flying duty commences from a standby duty then the limiting factor is the allowable Flight duty period plus the time spent on sby up to a maximum of 6 hours. In other words beyond 6 hours the meter starts running as if the flying duty had started at actual sby start time plus 6 hours. After your standby duty has terminated your time is yours again. If you elect to fly because you have agreed to and provided the overall limits are not violated then again this would be legal. However as you have completed a duty you are entitled to a rest period and so the choice is yours.
3) Sby 6am - midday and called out at 11 am for a 3 pm check in. Again no problem. Refer to answer 2 above. You dont say how many sectors but lets assume its 2 ( deduct 45 mins per sector if more and add 45 mins if 1). The FDP limit in this example is based on the sby start time so that is 12H 15 mins plus up to 6 hours of the time spent on SBY. Callout was at 11 am so that would be 5 hours plus 12 :15 = 17 hours and 15 mins from 6 am. In other words the duty is allowable until 23:15 on chocks. Also bear in mind the answer to (1) above. So again yes this is perfectly legal.
4) Rest should be as long as the preceeding duty or 12 hours whichever is the greater. Exceptionally at home base individual crewmembers may be asked to use their own discretion to reduce the rest by one hour. Even so for Flight deck there is a 12 hour minimum stipulation and 11 hours for cabin crew. It is the bit about " 10 hours rest at home" that I would question. The operator is only required to ensure the rest period between duties is to these limits. That takes no account of your own travelling or social arrangments. So if they haven't given you this rest period then you must tell them that you cannot undertake the subsequent duty. If however you simply havent had 10 hours rest at home because of your own domestic arrangements then I am afraid that is not their concern and yes it would be legal.
5) You can work up to 7 consecutive days between days off. You should have 2 consecutive days off in any consecutive 14 day period. So yes it is perfectly OK to roster 1 day off after 5 days work provided that they then roster 2 days off within or after the next 7 day period. They have done this, so that is legal. A single day off will include 2 local nights and cover at least 34 hours. You say your duty didn't include 2 local nights ( you need to be clear what 2 local nights actually defines as). In addition local variations may apply if agreement has been reached with aircrew associations. You don't give enough information to be clear on this, but based on the factual information you have supplied this does appear to be legal.
6) Provided you are not infringing FTL rules, so what ? This happens all the time. Companies often need to change the roster to allow for unforseen events ( or not as the case may be). It is not unusual to turn up for a flight and only then be rostered to fly somewhere else. This is the nature of the job, and although it can be a monumental nuisance it is perfectly legal.
7) See (1) above. A 15 hour duty would require 15 hours subsequent rest at home base, again subject to the answer given in (4) above. So if you were given 14 hours and agreed to this, that would be legal. You don't say how long the rest period was or if indeed this was the rest period and not how long you had at home ( see last sentence in 4 above.)
As you can see, it is less than simple. In the 7 examples you have given I would broadly say that your company was operating legally given the information you have supplied in detail. You are slightly vague on a couple of points, so it is not possible to give a fully considered reply on those items.
I have to say that, it really is important to read and try and understand what the rules actually state in your company FTL scheme. Very few people do take the time. Many people see what they want to see and fail to appreciate that there is considerable flexibility built into the schemes. There is an onus on the company and the crewmember to ensure they operate within the rules. Sometimes mistakes are made, but it is no good moaning about the rules unless you have a good working knowledge of what they actually are.
Anyway I hope this is of some help ?
1) Popular misconception this one. It is perfectly OK for the captain to excercise discretion from any base even before the first sector has started if he elects to do so. That discretion may be up to 2 hours ( normally) for the first and subsequent sectors, but may be up to 3 hours for a single sector flight or prior to the last sector of a multi sector flight. So yes this perfectly legal.
2) Standby is a duty period and the calculation of hours becomes slightly more complex depending on whether or not you are called out from it. There are maximum limits set on how long a standby duty can be ( 12hours) however if a flying duty commences from a standby duty then the limiting factor is the allowable Flight duty period plus the time spent on sby up to a maximum of 6 hours. In other words beyond 6 hours the meter starts running as if the flying duty had started at actual sby start time plus 6 hours. After your standby duty has terminated your time is yours again. If you elect to fly because you have agreed to and provided the overall limits are not violated then again this would be legal. However as you have completed a duty you are entitled to a rest period and so the choice is yours.
3) Sby 6am - midday and called out at 11 am for a 3 pm check in. Again no problem. Refer to answer 2 above. You dont say how many sectors but lets assume its 2 ( deduct 45 mins per sector if more and add 45 mins if 1). The FDP limit in this example is based on the sby start time so that is 12H 15 mins plus up to 6 hours of the time spent on SBY. Callout was at 11 am so that would be 5 hours plus 12 :15 = 17 hours and 15 mins from 6 am. In other words the duty is allowable until 23:15 on chocks. Also bear in mind the answer to (1) above. So again yes this is perfectly legal.
4) Rest should be as long as the preceeding duty or 12 hours whichever is the greater. Exceptionally at home base individual crewmembers may be asked to use their own discretion to reduce the rest by one hour. Even so for Flight deck there is a 12 hour minimum stipulation and 11 hours for cabin crew. It is the bit about " 10 hours rest at home" that I would question. The operator is only required to ensure the rest period between duties is to these limits. That takes no account of your own travelling or social arrangments. So if they haven't given you this rest period then you must tell them that you cannot undertake the subsequent duty. If however you simply havent had 10 hours rest at home because of your own domestic arrangements then I am afraid that is not their concern and yes it would be legal.
5) You can work up to 7 consecutive days between days off. You should have 2 consecutive days off in any consecutive 14 day period. So yes it is perfectly OK to roster 1 day off after 5 days work provided that they then roster 2 days off within or after the next 7 day period. They have done this, so that is legal. A single day off will include 2 local nights and cover at least 34 hours. You say your duty didn't include 2 local nights ( you need to be clear what 2 local nights actually defines as). In addition local variations may apply if agreement has been reached with aircrew associations. You don't give enough information to be clear on this, but based on the factual information you have supplied this does appear to be legal.
6) Provided you are not infringing FTL rules, so what ? This happens all the time. Companies often need to change the roster to allow for unforseen events ( or not as the case may be). It is not unusual to turn up for a flight and only then be rostered to fly somewhere else. This is the nature of the job, and although it can be a monumental nuisance it is perfectly legal.
7) See (1) above. A 15 hour duty would require 15 hours subsequent rest at home base, again subject to the answer given in (4) above. So if you were given 14 hours and agreed to this, that would be legal. You don't say how long the rest period was or if indeed this was the rest period and not how long you had at home ( see last sentence in 4 above.)
As you can see, it is less than simple. In the 7 examples you have given I would broadly say that your company was operating legally given the information you have supplied in detail. You are slightly vague on a couple of points, so it is not possible to give a fully considered reply on those items.
I have to say that, it really is important to read and try and understand what the rules actually state in your company FTL scheme. Very few people do take the time. Many people see what they want to see and fail to appreciate that there is considerable flexibility built into the schemes. There is an onus on the company and the crewmember to ensure they operate within the rules. Sometimes mistakes are made, but it is no good moaning about the rules unless you have a good working knowledge of what they actually are.
Anyway I hope this is of some help ?
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illegally
I go with eal401 cause Iīve been there.
26L is addressing some serious issues and I think itīs well worth to question the roster at times.
B. gives the answers and it sounds as though you guys work for the same outfit in somewhat different positions.
I believe that flt. duty and rest regs are very important and itīs important to understand PartA and all its subchapters specially if itīs not your native language.
Iīve been on a contract and refused to fly an airplane for a no-go item which appearently was known to mx for a couple of days.
A local guy replaced me, I called the CAA, safa check at dest., big problems for the airline and I got fired the next day.
And yes - if it happens again I do it again. If my family travels on an airplane Iīm expecting the crew to act according to airline politics which at least on paper should never put financial interests before safety. Itīs very sad to see that some companies did not yet get their priorities right. Itīs even worst that most times something bad happend thereīll be nobody left to ask. And last: It is very sad to see that most of the people in charge are pilots themselfs who somehow probably forgot where they once came from.
26L is addressing some serious issues and I think itīs well worth to question the roster at times.
B. gives the answers and it sounds as though you guys work for the same outfit in somewhat different positions.
I believe that flt. duty and rest regs are very important and itīs important to understand PartA and all its subchapters specially if itīs not your native language.
Iīve been on a contract and refused to fly an airplane for a no-go item which appearently was known to mx for a couple of days.
A local guy replaced me, I called the CAA, safa check at dest., big problems for the airline and I got fired the next day.
And yes - if it happens again I do it again. If my family travels on an airplane Iīm expecting the crew to act according to airline politics which at least on paper should never put financial interests before safety. Itīs very sad to see that some companies did not yet get their priorities right. Itīs even worst that most times something bad happend thereīll be nobody left to ask. And last: It is very sad to see that most of the people in charge are pilots themselfs who somehow probably forgot where they once came from.
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During my experience as crew, I have been able to notice that the captain is not in charge of the aircraft, the airline Operations Department is... and I know a lot of pilots reading this won't agree with this comment, but the reality can often be an eye opener. I've often seen captain's change their minds and come back on their decisions after receiving a certain amount of pressure from their Ops Dept.
Thanks for all the explanations relating to the different situations I had posted. I am currently studying your reply and checking it with the CAA CAP for Crew Fatigue. I think that it is important that all these issues are covered, and maybe even the creation of a website where crew can post situations and enquiries would be a good idea and could make the flying environment a bit better. It is true that you get a lot of moaners who can't even take 5 minutes to go through the books to check what the rules are, but I also think that in some situations, some airline departments would rather have crew not knowing the rules...
Thanks for all the explanations relating to the different situations I had posted. I am currently studying your reply and checking it with the CAA CAP for Crew Fatigue. I think that it is important that all these issues are covered, and maybe even the creation of a website where crew can post situations and enquiries would be a good idea and could make the flying environment a bit better. It is true that you get a lot of moaners who can't even take 5 minutes to go through the books to check what the rules are, but I also think that in some situations, some airline departments would rather have crew not knowing the rules...
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No ILS,
I have to disagree with you. Although I appreciate your sentiment, the Captain is most definetaly in charge of the aircraft. I cannot speak for all Captains but I would make the following points.
Sometimes a situation can arise that causes me to challenge another department within the company structure. This might be a crewing matter, it might be an operational matter, possibly engineering, or even a management call. At the end of the day I have the absolute right to decline to accept a situation if in my judgement to do so would be the correct and proper course of action. However, it can often be the case, that a decision is initially made provisionally and based on a limited amount of knowledge. It is quite proper to seek further guidance and clarification on a point, and subject to that further information, either confirm, modify or indeed reverse the initial decision. If I were doing this with my crewmembers it would be applying aspects of Crew Resource Management (CRM). For a Captain many of those same techniques also need to be applied deeper into the companies operational structure. It is true that operations or crewing may well apply pressure, but of course to a degree that is part of their job. Sometimes a forceful presentation of information is necessary for it to be given the proper degree of attention.
Just like you, I often get annoyed and irritated by situations beyond my immediate control and that is often caused by things that I may feel are unfair or incorrect. Upon closer and more in depth inspection it may well be the case that I am misunderstanding or failing to objectively appreciate what is actually being said. We are all human, and it would be unnatural for most of us not to be affected by such annoyances in our day to day lives. I can tell you that as a Captain it is sometimes very hard to take a step back from a decision or a firmly held opinion, and have to reconsider a matter from another viewpoint. Nevertheless, it is a fundamental part of the job. On the other hand there has been many an occaision when the situation has been reversed and my decision has been accepted, when on reflection it may have had less merit than I initially conveyed. This is part and parcel of the job.
I do not doubt what you say about crewing or operations putting people under pressure from time to time. I also appreciate that is significantly less likely that a junior crewmember has the will, experience, knowledge or seniority to necessarily stand firm against such pressure be it actual or perceived. We have all been in that position at one time or other and it is very uncomfortable.
However, it is not in a companies interest to break the rules. Companies are subject to audit in all departments on an annual basis. If crewmembers feel they have been wronged there are a number of procedures open to them to report the matter. Obviously one would hope the company had a system in place for such matters ( as they should!). The crewmember can report the matter to the authority if they really believe a serious violation has occurred or is likely to occur if a fault remains unchecked. There are also confidential channels for reporting matters if the reporter wishes to remain anonymous to their employerl. You say most companies would rather crew did not know the rules, but with respect this is really not the case. In fact as we have discussed throughout this thread, the rules are there to be read and understood. It would actually make things much easier if crews did understand the rules as it would cut down on the number of misunderstanding based complaints. I have said it before, but will say it again, crews must read the relevant portions of the ops manual and arm themselves with a workable understanding. The rules do have a great deal of flexibility built into them. Most Captains and First Officers would be more than happy to explain aspects that may not be readilly understood. Sometimes the rules lend themselves to interpretation and guidance may need to be sought to get an understanding of the application to a specific situation. Again if in doubt ask.
We all work hard and often fly long and tiring days. We all get fed up with the workload and seek to offset it wherever possible. Sometimes ops and crewing get it wrong, or fail to have updated information. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure we operate within the rules and to understand what those rules are. Everyday that I turn up for work, it is in the knowledge that however long a day I think I am going to work, it may well prove to be a good deal longer. It might take me anything up to 3 hours into the discretion allowed on my FDP. It might involve an unscheduled nightstop. It might be a short flight substituted by a long and unpopular one. It might involve having to make difficult judgement calls on a whole host of subjects. Inevitably it will nearly always mean having to impose the same hardships and gross inconveniences on the rest of my crew as well. I am afraid this is what the job often entails.
In these days of cutbacks, rationalisation, maximum efficiency and all the other corporate buzz words, we are all working close to the limit and often right up to it. I doubt there are many of us that do not feel put upon by our companies and its various departments on occaisions. However I have to say that errors aside, I do not operate outside the strict boundaries of the rules and regulations, and therefore I don't allow my company to either. However I have to repeat once again that those absolute boundaries are often not as restrictive or seemingly fair as you might think they are. You must seek to understand the rules as they actually exist and apply commonsense to the application of what is contained within those boundaries.
My apologies to the threads author if this topic has slanted in a slightly different direction from that intended.
I have to disagree with you. Although I appreciate your sentiment, the Captain is most definetaly in charge of the aircraft. I cannot speak for all Captains but I would make the following points.
Sometimes a situation can arise that causes me to challenge another department within the company structure. This might be a crewing matter, it might be an operational matter, possibly engineering, or even a management call. At the end of the day I have the absolute right to decline to accept a situation if in my judgement to do so would be the correct and proper course of action. However, it can often be the case, that a decision is initially made provisionally and based on a limited amount of knowledge. It is quite proper to seek further guidance and clarification on a point, and subject to that further information, either confirm, modify or indeed reverse the initial decision. If I were doing this with my crewmembers it would be applying aspects of Crew Resource Management (CRM). For a Captain many of those same techniques also need to be applied deeper into the companies operational structure. It is true that operations or crewing may well apply pressure, but of course to a degree that is part of their job. Sometimes a forceful presentation of information is necessary for it to be given the proper degree of attention.
Just like you, I often get annoyed and irritated by situations beyond my immediate control and that is often caused by things that I may feel are unfair or incorrect. Upon closer and more in depth inspection it may well be the case that I am misunderstanding or failing to objectively appreciate what is actually being said. We are all human, and it would be unnatural for most of us not to be affected by such annoyances in our day to day lives. I can tell you that as a Captain it is sometimes very hard to take a step back from a decision or a firmly held opinion, and have to reconsider a matter from another viewpoint. Nevertheless, it is a fundamental part of the job. On the other hand there has been many an occaision when the situation has been reversed and my decision has been accepted, when on reflection it may have had less merit than I initially conveyed. This is part and parcel of the job.
I do not doubt what you say about crewing or operations putting people under pressure from time to time. I also appreciate that is significantly less likely that a junior crewmember has the will, experience, knowledge or seniority to necessarily stand firm against such pressure be it actual or perceived. We have all been in that position at one time or other and it is very uncomfortable.
However, it is not in a companies interest to break the rules. Companies are subject to audit in all departments on an annual basis. If crewmembers feel they have been wronged there are a number of procedures open to them to report the matter. Obviously one would hope the company had a system in place for such matters ( as they should!). The crewmember can report the matter to the authority if they really believe a serious violation has occurred or is likely to occur if a fault remains unchecked. There are also confidential channels for reporting matters if the reporter wishes to remain anonymous to their employerl. You say most companies would rather crew did not know the rules, but with respect this is really not the case. In fact as we have discussed throughout this thread, the rules are there to be read and understood. It would actually make things much easier if crews did understand the rules as it would cut down on the number of misunderstanding based complaints. I have said it before, but will say it again, crews must read the relevant portions of the ops manual and arm themselves with a workable understanding. The rules do have a great deal of flexibility built into them. Most Captains and First Officers would be more than happy to explain aspects that may not be readilly understood. Sometimes the rules lend themselves to interpretation and guidance may need to be sought to get an understanding of the application to a specific situation. Again if in doubt ask.
We all work hard and often fly long and tiring days. We all get fed up with the workload and seek to offset it wherever possible. Sometimes ops and crewing get it wrong, or fail to have updated information. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure we operate within the rules and to understand what those rules are. Everyday that I turn up for work, it is in the knowledge that however long a day I think I am going to work, it may well prove to be a good deal longer. It might take me anything up to 3 hours into the discretion allowed on my FDP. It might involve an unscheduled nightstop. It might be a short flight substituted by a long and unpopular one. It might involve having to make difficult judgement calls on a whole host of subjects. Inevitably it will nearly always mean having to impose the same hardships and gross inconveniences on the rest of my crew as well. I am afraid this is what the job often entails.
In these days of cutbacks, rationalisation, maximum efficiency and all the other corporate buzz words, we are all working close to the limit and often right up to it. I doubt there are many of us that do not feel put upon by our companies and its various departments on occaisions. However I have to say that errors aside, I do not operate outside the strict boundaries of the rules and regulations, and therefore I don't allow my company to either. However I have to repeat once again that those absolute boundaries are often not as restrictive or seemingly fair as you might think they are. You must seek to understand the rules as they actually exist and apply commonsense to the application of what is contained within those boundaries.
My apologies to the threads author if this topic has slanted in a slightly different direction from that intended.
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Have to agree to max blow.
You take the walk off the aircraft operating with a known MEL restriction, you also walk away with no job.
They wait till you request days off then you get the notice to not return, Contract not renewed.
Since said contract is in another country you have no legal recourse for action.
Someone will replace you in your position, company guy etc.
Rules and safety issues mean nothing even with the CAA when you are confirmed to be correct as to you keeping your position.
The CAA will not help you keep you job.
They will say thank you and end the story, company will get the old slap on the wrist and all is forgiven.
Meanwhile your job is gone.
Been there done that, this northern cold country is paying off the world to look the other direction!
Heard one say earlier, they all smarter than Mr. Boeing and his MEL/DDPG.
Not a question, a proven fact.
You take the walk off the aircraft operating with a known MEL restriction, you also walk away with no job.
They wait till you request days off then you get the notice to not return, Contract not renewed.
Since said contract is in another country you have no legal recourse for action.
Someone will replace you in your position, company guy etc.
Rules and safety issues mean nothing even with the CAA when you are confirmed to be correct as to you keeping your position.
The CAA will not help you keep you job.
They will say thank you and end the story, company will get the old slap on the wrist and all is forgiven.
Meanwhile your job is gone.
Been there done that, this northern cold country is paying off the world to look the other direction!
Heard one say earlier, they all smarter than Mr. Boeing and his MEL/DDPG.
Not a question, a proven fact.
Last edited by 2Bad2Sad; 14th Feb 2005 at 00:13.
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Must agree with the above post.
I too know of a case where somone lost their job for refusing to fly outside of the MEL.
Not straight away but at the first opportune moment.
He would do the same again. But he doesn't fly anymore.
I too know of a case where somone lost their job for refusing to fly outside of the MEL.
Not straight away but at the first opportune moment.
He would do the same again. But he doesn't fly anymore.