LHR approach question
I went along to a new aircraft noise group meeting from the Windsor area, specifically about single op landings on 09L (over Windsor) without any alternate runway use.
I am not part of the noise group. However, I raised the following question to the BAA media person present.
"If" the Cranford agreement was removed, could all take off movements be accomodated at 09L, considering that 09R has dual taxiways, and larger holding points at the threshold.
09L has only a single taxi approach. Also will T5 block any route to 09L from the South ie T4.
Repeat I am not part of the noise group, just asking about LHR layout & future.
I am not part of the noise group. However, I raised the following question to the BAA media person present.
"If" the Cranford agreement was removed, could all take off movements be accomodated at 09L, considering that 09R has dual taxiways, and larger holding points at the threshold.
09L has only a single taxi approach. Also will T5 block any route to 09L from the South ie T4.
Repeat I am not part of the noise group, just asking about LHR layout & future.
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Well I never, ever, thought I would dispute something that Heathrow Director has penned about ATC....but I'm about to!
I live in London SE7, call it Charlton/Westcombe Park/Greenwich.
I can assure you the planes start coming over at anytime from 0500 local onwards. I stand on the station platform at 0530 and watch the heavies descend into LHR, sometimes you can get three in view.
I've always assumed that these came from Asia, not the States.
I used to live in Asia and I can easily recall landing at LHR at around 0515 local one morning after a flight from Singapore. Ditto, Hong Kong and (I think) KL.
So what gives? Are certain flights coming from Asia exempted from the 0600 ruling?
Many thanks if someone can answer this.
I live in London SE7, call it Charlton/Westcombe Park/Greenwich.
I can assure you the planes start coming over at anytime from 0500 local onwards. I stand on the station platform at 0530 and watch the heavies descend into LHR, sometimes you can get three in view.
I've always assumed that these came from Asia, not the States.
I used to live in Asia and I can easily recall landing at LHR at around 0515 local one morning after a flight from Singapore. Ditto, Hong Kong and (I think) KL.
So what gives? Are certain flights coming from Asia exempted from the 0600 ruling?
Many thanks if someone can answer this.
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Sorry, I should have made the situation clearer. A lot of movements do occur before 6am.. Each year airlines are allocated a certain number of flights which they can have outside of the normal curfew, ie during the night, and the first ones are sometimes there by 4.30am. Some airlines use that allocation to land their flights earlier than 6am; in fact it can be quite hectic after 5am with the curfew flights arriving to the holds around 5.30am (unless things have changed!) and those wishing to land earlier mixed up with them.
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So when is LHR going to give preferential treatment to Chapter 4 aircraft? By that I mean I was told that soon Chapter 4 aircraft will get first shot at the available night slots. If all the slots are taken by Chapter 4 aircraft then Chapter 3 aircraft will be effectively locked out. 
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Just came across this message, hence reactivating a thread that's been dormant a couple of weeks.
I live about 500yds south of the ILS for 27L in Deptford, and do notice when planes go low and have to power up during the final turn. Actually I was mildly told off by Heathrow Director in December 2002 when I asked on this site why planes were 'swooping like swallows' over East London before joining the ILS: "It just doesn't happen!" the great man said. It all depends on what you qualify as swooping of course . . .
Actually to be fair it's not a big deal; it's noticeable but happens fairly infrequently and doesn't rattle the windows much when it does. The 'noticeability' of planes is much more a function of how many are joining the ILS over us (as once they're on it they're pretty quiet).
We're unfortunate in that we seem to get planes both from Biggin and Ockham headed for the ILS - the latter being the noisier as they make the sharper turn. Be interested to know whether the tracks flown over us from these stacks are determined by a single radar controller, or whether they're are at the discretion of different controllers working independently.
Also it seems kinda unfair that we that we get so much traffic over us from two different directions ... what's the chances of one or the other of these tracks being used less?
I live about 500yds south of the ILS for 27L in Deptford, and do notice when planes go low and have to power up during the final turn. Actually I was mildly told off by Heathrow Director in December 2002 when I asked on this site why planes were 'swooping like swallows' over East London before joining the ILS: "It just doesn't happen!" the great man said. It all depends on what you qualify as swooping of course . . .
Actually to be fair it's not a big deal; it's noticeable but happens fairly infrequently and doesn't rattle the windows much when it does. The 'noticeability' of planes is much more a function of how many are joining the ILS over us (as once they're on it they're pretty quiet).
We're unfortunate in that we seem to get planes both from Biggin and Ockham headed for the ILS - the latter being the noisier as they make the sharper turn. Be interested to know whether the tracks flown over us from these stacks are determined by a single radar controller, or whether they're are at the discretion of different controllers working independently.
Also it seems kinda unfair that we that we get so much traffic over us from two different directions ... what's the chances of one or the other of these tracks being used less?
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Hi Jellied Eels (my Dad's favourite - he was an East End boy). Absolutely nothing "great" about me - I'm probably the lowest form of life who ever put a headset on, but the sort of aeroplanes we are dealing with do not swoop around like Swallows - honest!
This is roughly what happens... A/c leave Ockham heading about 070 degrees descending to 4000 ft at around 210 knots airspeed. At an appropriate point, depending on traffic ahead, they turn left onto about 010 degrees and reduce to 180 kts. They then turn on to the ILS and commence final descent. Traffic from Biggin has to be sequenced into the same approach area.. sometimes it might fly directly off Biggin heading about 320 degrees straight on to the ILS, OR.. it might leave Biggin heading west and then be turned right on to about 070 degrees to join the same track as the Ockham traffic. So.. it is not likely that you could know which traffic is which.
The same thing happens from the north with traffic from the Bovingdon and Lamborne stacks - they are sequenced onto an approximate heading of around 130 degrees to start with.... and everything ends up as one stream on final approach.
The point at which they turn on to the ILS - and, of course, whether they fly over your house, is entirely dependent on traffic offering and how the radar controllers are playing it. One radar controller is responsible for Biggin and Ockham and another (on a separate radio frequency) for Bovingdon and Lamborne. These controllers turn the a/c on to the downwind headings (070 from the south, 130 from the north). When they have issued descent instructions to 4000 ft they then hand the a/c over to a third controller on another frequency whose task is to position the a/c on final approach with the required spacing as accurately as possible. He accepts traffic both from the north and the south and is a busy fella..
It's not possible to use one of the downwind tracks less because there is only one, although it may vary from one a/c to another. A/c from OCK and BIG are being radar-directed into one stream and all the tracks flown by a/c in the Heathrow Approach sector are on radar headings - no particular tracks are laid down for them to fly and the headings I mentioned above are only approximate, being at the discretion of the radar controllers. Actual headings issued depend on other traffic and weather conditions and these will all play a part in the tracks of the aircraft over the ground. Sometimes traffic from OCK might head north and then turn onto 090 degrees... or maybe even over the top of Heathrow and then turn downwind from the "other" side. Equally, traffic from Bovingdon may, rarely, come over Heathrow and then turn downwind to join the BIG and OCK sequence. Every flight is different and requires different treatment, but they all end up on final approach somewhere between 8 and 20 miles from touchdown.
Hope this helps..
This is roughly what happens... A/c leave Ockham heading about 070 degrees descending to 4000 ft at around 210 knots airspeed. At an appropriate point, depending on traffic ahead, they turn left onto about 010 degrees and reduce to 180 kts. They then turn on to the ILS and commence final descent. Traffic from Biggin has to be sequenced into the same approach area.. sometimes it might fly directly off Biggin heading about 320 degrees straight on to the ILS, OR.. it might leave Biggin heading west and then be turned right on to about 070 degrees to join the same track as the Ockham traffic. So.. it is not likely that you could know which traffic is which.
The same thing happens from the north with traffic from the Bovingdon and Lamborne stacks - they are sequenced onto an approximate heading of around 130 degrees to start with.... and everything ends up as one stream on final approach.
The point at which they turn on to the ILS - and, of course, whether they fly over your house, is entirely dependent on traffic offering and how the radar controllers are playing it. One radar controller is responsible for Biggin and Ockham and another (on a separate radio frequency) for Bovingdon and Lamborne. These controllers turn the a/c on to the downwind headings (070 from the south, 130 from the north). When they have issued descent instructions to 4000 ft they then hand the a/c over to a third controller on another frequency whose task is to position the a/c on final approach with the required spacing as accurately as possible. He accepts traffic both from the north and the south and is a busy fella..
It's not possible to use one of the downwind tracks less because there is only one, although it may vary from one a/c to another. A/c from OCK and BIG are being radar-directed into one stream and all the tracks flown by a/c in the Heathrow Approach sector are on radar headings - no particular tracks are laid down for them to fly and the headings I mentioned above are only approximate, being at the discretion of the radar controllers. Actual headings issued depend on other traffic and weather conditions and these will all play a part in the tracks of the aircraft over the ground. Sometimes traffic from OCK might head north and then turn onto 090 degrees... or maybe even over the top of Heathrow and then turn downwind from the "other" side. Equally, traffic from Bovingdon may, rarely, come over Heathrow and then turn downwind to join the BIG and OCK sequence. Every flight is different and requires different treatment, but they all end up on final approach somewhere between 8 and 20 miles from touchdown.
Hope this helps..
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 4th Oct 2004 at 14:35.
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744Focal, speaking for my company, we would not often land flap 30 at LHR,. We would tell ATC if unable to maintain 160 to 4 early on. And anyway at normal landing weights Vref + 5 flap 25 is around 145-155 kts. Think i had 162 kts once but that was a collection of unusual circumstances. (tankering fuel) As max ZFW is 245T you have to have 40t fuel in tanks to be at max landing weights and the speeds you suggest. So even max ZFW plus a generous arrival fuel of 15t only puts you at 260t (but dont have the speeds on me but i think 158?)
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Trinity,
Using 09L for departure really slows things down, because of the things you mention. Also, 09R is a more difficult runway to vacate quickly, because of the positioning of the runway exits, so increassed inbound spacing would possibly be needed.
If 09R is out of action, we go single runway on 09L. We just get the BAA Ops Manager's approval because of the Cranford agreement.
Using 09L for departure really slows things down, because of the things you mention. Also, 09R is a more difficult runway to vacate quickly, because of the positioning of the runway exits, so increassed inbound spacing would possibly be needed.
If 09R is out of action, we go single runway on 09L. We just get the BAA Ops Manager's approval because of the Cranford agreement.
