Sri Lanka A340 Engine Failure ZRH
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mars
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the pictures, why did it take so long to put the gear up. A question to all the bus boys....losing one engine, is the climb performance that degraded that it can hardly climb as claimed by a few on this topic.
Good one G4G5.
Good one G4G5.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You ladies got nothing better to do?
Of all the airports in Europe, ZRH is one of the ones I always hope I'll never get an engine failure.
Well done by the UL Crew!
Those of you who brief "clean up and request vectors back to land" should note the warnings from ATC. How can they vector you when you are below minimum safe altitude?
Of all the airports in Europe, ZRH is one of the ones I always hope I'll never get an engine failure.
Well done by the UL Crew!
Those of you who brief "clean up and request vectors back to land" should note the warnings from ATC. How can they vector you when you are below minimum safe altitude?
Rudder input?
Our (2-engine) A-320 pilots say that there is not much rudder input needed in the sim. with a failure at V1, compared to a B-737, B-757 or DC-9.
On a 4-engine A-340, would there be even less pushing required on the rudder pedal? Would there not be less force required?
Our (2-engine) A-320 pilots say that there is not much rudder input needed in the sim. with a failure at V1, compared to a B-737, B-757 or DC-9.
On a 4-engine A-340, would there be even less pushing required on the rudder pedal? Would there not be less force required?
From the photos I thought the climb performance of the aircraft was actually quite good...nothing like Hong Kong on a hot afternoon...
Ignition Override
The rudder input required for an engine failure at rotation is substantial depending upon speed. This is true for the A320 as well as the A340 & A330. Perhaps what is being referred to is the fact that, academically speaking, one can engage the autopilot without using rudder or trimming the aircraft and the autopilot will do the work, trimming and eventually straightening the gentle turn towards the dead engine. I've seen it demonstrated in the simulator and its impressive though not SOP. Rudder trim required is usually around 12 to 15deg, naturally easing off as speed reaches green dot.
Last edited by PJ2; 11th Oct 2006 at 06:28. Reason: Include response to Ignition Override
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SF,CA,USA
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gear & rudder
On the gear being down longer than expected - is it not possible the aircraft may have had a heavy landing, or long landing on the last leg, and needed to cool the brakes down, especially given the now pressing need to land pretty heavy, pretty soon. Brake fade is not something you'd want to add to the situation?
Regarding rudder correction, surely by basic physics losing #1 or #4 on a four engine ship is the "worst case" scenario because you now have unbalanced thrust further from the centerline? Torque=Force*Distance and all that.
I'd guess "Distance" is bigger for the outer engines in a four engine plane than it is on a 2 engine ship, so if the thrust per engine is of a similar magnitude for each, the A340 will need more compensation from rudder than would a 2 engine plane.
Regarding rudder correction, surely by basic physics losing #1 or #4 on a four engine ship is the "worst case" scenario because you now have unbalanced thrust further from the centerline? Torque=Force*Distance and all that.
I'd guess "Distance" is bigger for the outer engines in a four engine plane than it is on a 2 engine ship, so if the thrust per engine is of a similar magnitude for each, the A340 will need more compensation from rudder than would a 2 engine plane.
performance
plane in photos achieved better than Jarops subparts F and G or CFR14 part 25 certified minimum 2nd segment performance if it was at or near balanced field conditions for environment/weight or flex thrust conditions.
Looks like a nicely managed rotate at around the right speed and trim condition. 
Looks like a nicely managed rotate at around the right speed and trim condition.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wybacrik
Posts: 1,190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps a return back to basics might be required here!...
" Failure/fire after V1, no calls until the gear has been selected up "...
that ring a bell with anyone?
And don't prattle on about reasons for leaving the gear down...
go and revisit 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th segment requirements!
What do they teach you guys these days?
" Failure/fire after V1, no calls until the gear has been selected up "...
that ring a bell with anyone?
And don't prattle on about reasons for leaving the gear down...
go and revisit 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th segment requirements!
What do they teach you guys these days?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Choroni, sometimes
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aka Capt PPRuNe
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, and this thread was started in September 2004. It was ressurected because someone was having a stroll through the archives and posted a question about it.
Sorry, no conspiracy here.
Sorry, no conspiracy here.
On the gear being down longer than expected - is it not possible the aircraft may have had a heavy landing, or long landing on the last leg, and needed to cool the brakes down, especially given the now pressing need to land pretty heavy, pretty soon. Brake fade is not something you'd want to add to the situation?
. . . .
. . . .
4potflyer;
The Airbus family (A320, A340 etc), require that the takeoff configuration be tested as one of the last items in the Before Takeoff checklist. One of the configuration checks is the brake temps which all must be at/below 300C or the warning will trigger. The SOP is, the takeoff cannot be started until the configuration check is successful.
Such would preclude the requirement to leave the gear down. The only other logical cause to leave the gear down (without guessing what the crew was confronted with), would be an MEL'd unserviceable brake on one of the mains requiring the wheels to spin down before retraction. I rather doubt this was the case here however.
Originally Posted by amos2
Perhaps a return back to basics might be required here!...
" Failure/fire after V1, no calls until the gear has been selected up "...
that ring a bell with anyone?
And don't prattle on about reasons for leaving the gear down...
go and revisit 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th segment requirements!
What do they teach you guys these days?
" Failure/fire after V1, no calls until the gear has been selected up "...
that ring a bell with anyone?
And don't prattle on about reasons for leaving the gear down...
go and revisit 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th segment requirements!
What do they teach you guys these days?
Not many transition courses these days teach or even touch upon 1rst, 2nd, 3rd and 4th segment climb certification standards and engine-out performance requirements.
What is emphasized in training however are the numbers...V2+10, correct pitch attitude - initially 12.5deg then SRS commands, getting the gear up with positive rate and then doing the ECAM actions followed by 3rd segment clean-up and, once the aircraft is secured, managing the decision (depending upon departure weather) to continue or return.
One may assume that by doing these first items, the aircraft performance is meeting or exceeding 2nd segment certification requirements.
For better or worse, those seem to be "the basics" these days.
I think we might agree that it is 2nd segment climb performance that would be the most critical for 4-engine transport category aircraft, twins normally exceeding these requirements by a comfortable margin.
Last edited by PJ2; 12th Oct 2006 at 00:00. Reason: formatting
Johnman;
Re, "The Question is do you discuss eng out performance and routing before departure out of this special airport (terrain wise)?."
Absolutely. Where such special procedures are present, they are a part of our standard departure briefing.
To be sure, ZRH isn't the only airport with engine out routing either - Hong Kong is another and so, I understand, is Bogota to cite a couple.
In designated mountainous terminals it is SOP to ensure that at least one ND has "Terrain" displayed.
Re, "The Question is do you discuss eng out performance and routing before departure out of this special airport (terrain wise)?."
Absolutely. Where such special procedures are present, they are a part of our standard departure briefing.
To be sure, ZRH isn't the only airport with engine out routing either - Hong Kong is another and so, I understand, is Bogota to cite a couple.
In designated mountainous terminals it is SOP to ensure that at least one ND has "Terrain" displayed.
Rudder input?
Our (2-engine) A-320 pilots say that there is not much rudder input needed in the sim. with a failure at V1, compared to a B-737, B-757 or DC-9.
On a 4-engine A-340, would there be even less pushing required on the rudder pedal? Would there not be less force required?
Our (2-engine) A-320 pilots say that there is not much rudder input needed in the sim. with a failure at V1, compared to a B-737, B-757 or DC-9.
On a 4-engine A-340, would there be even less pushing required on the rudder pedal? Would there not be less force required?
Last edited by xetroV; 14th Oct 2006 at 13:28.
