Flying non glass cockpit in Europe
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Flying non glass cockpit in Europe
Hello,
I have a question. How do you guys that fly older aircraft navigate through europe? Modern aircraft that have GPS the aircraft flies itself all along the magenta line on the navigation display isn't very hard..
How do you guys do it? Do you actually sit and tune a VOR and track radials all along the flight, and what do you do if you ATC wants you to proceed direct to some point?
Thanks
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/598098/M/
I have a question. How do you guys that fly older aircraft navigate through europe? Modern aircraft that have GPS the aircraft flies itself all along the magenta line on the navigation display isn't very hard..
How do you guys do it? Do you actually sit and tune a VOR and track radials all along the flight, and what do you do if you ATC wants you to proceed direct to some point?
Thanks
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/598098/M/
ZbV
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Navigating
One can file non RNAV routes and fly the old fashioned way from VOR to VOR at lower altitudes, but at higher levers... Well
It is not really the lack of EFIS,but using NAV equipment lacking NAV database that can cause some gray hair with both controllers and pilots alike.
Som fellows plough along using Delco Carousels with 9 waypoints, though I hear these will not be allowed after the end of the year?
JJ
It is not really the lack of EFIS,but using NAV equipment lacking NAV database that can cause some gray hair with both controllers and pilots alike.
Som fellows plough along using Delco Carousels with 9 waypoints, though I hear these will not be allowed after the end of the year?
JJ
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It was never a problem. It just took more concentration and having a good airways chart to hand. Even VC10s and Tridents (God Bless 'em) spent many happy years chuntering around like this. VC10s had Doppler systems to help and Tridents (God Bless 'em) had Decca, but pilots should not be afraid of VOR navigation or they shouldn't be sitting there!
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The old steam gauges certainly force you to keep your situational awareness up to speed and your scan going!
It can get exciting when you're being asked to hold on some fix you're not familiar with and you have to first find out were the hell it is and then how to get there, sometimes it takes more then one chart to figure things out and the cockpit lighting in the jurassic aircraft is not that good either.
Now all you need to make matters really intense is an inexperienced crewmember, an SP77 (or similar) auto-pilot and some inclement weather and you can work your tail off without anything actually going wrong!
what fun!
Only half a speed-brake
As of yet I'd never had the pleasure (nopun intended!) but i am sure one, that is to say a single one, would get enough attention and assistance if required. Perhaps one could even decline a short-cut if unable to navigate. Direct BOMBI 150NM out? Punch in FFM, warp 5, and do THE math. 
Plenty o'time to go.
However some huge /high alt/ airspace is accesible only for those who are B-RNAV enabled, thus ready to navigate to any given point with certain precision. If unable - not allowed. In a break-down case: "Unable B-RNAV due equipment" as per ICAO Doc 4444/PANS-ATM. Simple as that.
The picture you show reminds me that when we phased out the venerable Tupolev Tu-154Ms dredges, they had been equipped with fleet's most state-of-the-art NAV systems. This was about 7 years ago and still, our common B737/A310 thingies is would be inferior in terms of single unit performance. And, yes, the CDU displays were mounted on F/Os side of the EngIns stack, invisible to the camera shot provided.
Plenty o'time to go.However some huge /high alt/ airspace is accesible only for those who are B-RNAV enabled, thus ready to navigate to any given point with certain precision. If unable - not allowed. In a break-down case: "Unable B-RNAV due equipment" as per ICAO Doc 4444/PANS-ATM. Simple as that.
The picture you show reminds me that when we phased out the venerable Tupolev Tu-154Ms dredges, they had been equipped with fleet's most state-of-the-art NAV systems. This was about 7 years ago and still, our common B737/A310 thingies is would be inferior in terms of single unit performance. And, yes, the CDU displays were mounted on F/Os side of the EngIns stack, invisible to the camera shot provided.
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Reasonable response time of controller directive
This question is for ATC: "...cleared direct XYZ." What time interval is acceptable to comply with the directive? If XYZ isn't on the route and not loaded in the FMS and maybe XYZ has first to be located on a chart, does the crew have 30 seconds? 60 seconds to initiate a turn...before the controller gets concerned?
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Navigation
Hiya Glueball...
Being an occasional Delco driver I can say from experience that in a busy enviroment nothing can surpass a navigational system with a database. Off route/flightplan directs can be quite a hassle. Often when give one I request for initial heading and then take the time to find where we are actually going.
When flying on airways with very little traffic and quite a ways between waypints I find the Delcos and older Littons without database still quite usable, but somewhat less user friendly than a modern FMS or even a Litton -92 with database. Probably the worst one to use is a LTN-92 without database as one first needs to insert the name of the waypont and then LAT/LON's, quite labour intensive excersise.
So it is not really the lack of EFIS/glass that makes things difficult, however EFIS cockpit does increase situational awareness greatly compared to the old clockworks or steam gauges. Flying with the old stuff one must keep a much closer look at what is conspiring around.
AD
Being an occasional Delco driver I can say from experience that in a busy enviroment nothing can surpass a navigational system with a database. Off route/flightplan directs can be quite a hassle. Often when give one I request for initial heading and then take the time to find where we are actually going.
When flying on airways with very little traffic and quite a ways between waypints I find the Delcos and older Littons without database still quite usable, but somewhat less user friendly than a modern FMS or even a Litton -92 with database. Probably the worst one to use is a LTN-92 without database as one first needs to insert the name of the waypont and then LAT/LON's, quite labour intensive excersise.
So it is not really the lack of EFIS/glass that makes things difficult, however EFIS cockpit does increase situational awareness greatly compared to the old clockworks or steam gauges. Flying with the old stuff one must keep a much closer look at what is conspiring around.
AD
Last edited by Atlanta-Driver; 16th Jun 2004 at 07:47.
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I know you´ve asked about Europe, but I guess this might answer your question. I fly the B737- 200 series for a South American airline and we just use the basic navigation method by tuning the desire VOR/NDB to navigate. When the controler asks for a direct heading we may ask for vectors or just do like some of my coleagues that carry they own GPS.
