Question ref: the T/O featured in 'Airline' title sequence
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Question ref: the T/O featured in 'Airline' title sequence
Hi folks,
Hope this doesn't come across as too much of an anorak-type question, but as I have recently been employed as a dispatcher I have taken to watching 'Airline' on ITV.
I have noticed that in the title sequence the captain is PF on the T/O featured and has his hand on the thrust levers up until rotation.
Now, whilst I have yet to have the opportunity to enjoy a flight deck position I do recall the training from my MCC course, and the routine we practiced (far from exhaustive I know) was quite different. During the T/O roll after power had been set, the PF handled the a/c controls and the PNF (in our scenarios this was always the captain) monitored instruments with one hand on the thrust levers up until V1 was called. At this point, the PNF removed their hand from the levers (as the T/O would not be aborted) and the T/O was continued.
I was therefore wondering why PF in the title sequence would be handling the thrust levers in addition to flying the a/c, and also what the reason would be to continue to have one hand on them at rotation? What would the PNF be doing at this time? Does the captain always have authority over the thrust levers during T/O even when he/she is also PF?
I can fully appreciate the need for both crew to remain current in both T/O and landing, but without understanding the reason for this action, it does rather seem to go against the idea of a multi-crew operation. Or does it?
Hope this doesn't come across as too much of an anorak-type question, but as I have recently been employed as a dispatcher I have taken to watching 'Airline' on ITV.
I have noticed that in the title sequence the captain is PF on the T/O featured and has his hand on the thrust levers up until rotation.
Now, whilst I have yet to have the opportunity to enjoy a flight deck position I do recall the training from my MCC course, and the routine we practiced (far from exhaustive I know) was quite different. During the T/O roll after power had been set, the PF handled the a/c controls and the PNF (in our scenarios this was always the captain) monitored instruments with one hand on the thrust levers up until V1 was called. At this point, the PNF removed their hand from the levers (as the T/O would not be aborted) and the T/O was continued.
I was therefore wondering why PF in the title sequence would be handling the thrust levers in addition to flying the a/c, and also what the reason would be to continue to have one hand on them at rotation? What would the PNF be doing at this time? Does the captain always have authority over the thrust levers during T/O even when he/she is also PF?
I can fully appreciate the need for both crew to remain current in both T/O and landing, but without understanding the reason for this action, it does rather seem to go against the idea of a multi-crew operation. Or does it?
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Apologies if this theory is flawed, as I dont understand much of the above post, but, could the video clip be reversed (ie a mirror image?). Would this explain it?
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EZJ's philosophy regarding rejected take-off's is that the skipper decides whether or not to reject, that's probably why he has his hands on the throttles.
On the 300's power is set by the non-handling pilot (aligns N1 indications with 'required N1' markers) - not sure regarding the 700's, but the 744's EPR is set automatically by the Autothrottles when pressing TOGA)
Regarding the removing of the hands from the throttles - think about it.....
If you have no V1 or if V1=Vr then the aircraft can be stopped right up until Vr, hence the hands are only moved from the throttles at Vr.
PNF would be watching engine indications during the T/O roll / climb-out.
On the 300's power is set by the non-handling pilot (aligns N1 indications with 'required N1' markers) - not sure regarding the 700's, but the 744's EPR is set automatically by the Autothrottles when pressing TOGA)
Regarding the removing of the hands from the throttles - think about it.....
If you have no V1 or if V1=Vr then the aircraft can be stopped right up until Vr, hence the hands are only moved from the throttles at Vr.
PNF would be watching engine indications during the T/O roll / climb-out.
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The reject decision rest with the captain ,so Boeing recommends that the captain should keep one hand on the throttles during take off.
The take off power is set by the FP (we use AT on 737) then the captain takes throttles,if he's PNF.
At Vr the throttles are released,to prevent unintended movement.
The take off power is set by the FP (we use AT on 737) then the captain takes throttles,if he's PNF.
At Vr the throttles are released,to prevent unintended movement.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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There is also some relevant discussion in this thread. The impression I get from reading that is that it depends very much on the company SOPs - so while your MCC might have shown you a "typical" way of doing things, it certainly wouldn't be the only way?
FFF
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FFF
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Guess I should have watched yesterday's broadcast before I posted this query and left myself wide open to general mocking.
Having watched the sequence a little more closely, in that particular clip the captain does not appear to move the control wheel to commence rotation, which makes a great deal more sense. My confusion has been caused by the very next clip in the sequence showing a 737 rotating and my underpowered brain cell associating this with the flight deck shot preceeding it.
However, I appreciate the feedback so far, especially the v1 = vR explanation. So I guess it would be fair to say that for most operators it is standard practice for the captain to have authority over the thrust levers during T/O, even when he is PF?
Oh, and grateful for the fact that the anoraks didn't spot my mistake.
FFF
Yeah, it was actually that thread that jogged my (faulty) memory and prompted me to ask the question. Didn't want to spoil a good thread with my ignorance though.
Having watched the sequence a little more closely, in that particular clip the captain does not appear to move the control wheel to commence rotation, which makes a great deal more sense. My confusion has been caused by the very next clip in the sequence showing a 737 rotating and my underpowered brain cell associating this with the flight deck shot preceeding it.
However, I appreciate the feedback so far, especially the v1 = vR explanation. So I guess it would be fair to say that for most operators it is standard practice for the captain to have authority over the thrust levers during T/O, even when he is PF?
Oh, and grateful for the fact that the anoraks didn't spot my mistake.
FFF
Yeah, it was actually that thread that jogged my (faulty) memory and prompted me to ask the question. Didn't want to spoil a good thread with my ignorance though.
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It depends largely on company SOPs.
I have flown the same type for several operators and they have varied in this area (and many others!) In jmc (as was) the F/O could do most of what the captain could do; ie as PF he could make the decision to stop and carried out the stop actions, therefore he had his hand on the levers up to V1. If the captain wanted to reject he would call stop and the F/O would still carry out the reject actions.
In my current airline (Brits) it is the captain only (barring incapacitation) who can reject the take off, therefore, if he is PNF, the F/O 'stands them up' and selects 'EPR', the captain will set the thrust and hold the levers to V1. If the captain is PF, he 'stands them up', selects 'EPR' (autothrust commanded to T/O postition) and the F/O will 'fine tune' the levers to ensure the thrust is correctly set and the captain will hold them until V1.
There are arguments for an against each method. Boeing recommends the captain being the only one to carry out the reject, but then the F/O is I suppose more likely to be locked into his train of thought that he never rejects and hence when the very rare occassion arises where he has to he is even less ready for it!
Hope that helps.
PP
I have flown the same type for several operators and they have varied in this area (and many others!) In jmc (as was) the F/O could do most of what the captain could do; ie as PF he could make the decision to stop and carried out the stop actions, therefore he had his hand on the levers up to V1. If the captain wanted to reject he would call stop and the F/O would still carry out the reject actions.
In my current airline (Brits) it is the captain only (barring incapacitation) who can reject the take off, therefore, if he is PNF, the F/O 'stands them up' and selects 'EPR', the captain will set the thrust and hold the levers to V1. If the captain is PF, he 'stands them up', selects 'EPR' (autothrust commanded to T/O postition) and the F/O will 'fine tune' the levers to ensure the thrust is correctly set and the captain will hold them until V1.
There are arguments for an against each method. Boeing recommends the captain being the only one to carry out the reject, but then the F/O is I suppose more likely to be locked into his train of thought that he never rejects and hence when the very rare occassion arises where he has to he is even less ready for it!
Hope that helps.
PP
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Witchdoctor
That same title sequence shows the rotation of the B737 at almost phenomenal speed - (I think it leaps off the ground in about a second - it should take about 6 seconds) where the film has obviously been speeded up.
This is another example of TV fartassing about with reality to make it look more "dramatic" or "convincing", so I wouldn't be surprised at all if your perceptions were playing tricks on you - it's probably just a piece of clever editing.
EZY SOPs for takeoff are broadly the same as what Pilot Pete said, so either way, I think your sanity is OK (on this point at least!)
That same title sequence shows the rotation of the B737 at almost phenomenal speed - (I think it leaps off the ground in about a second - it should take about 6 seconds) where the film has obviously been speeded up.
This is another example of TV fartassing about with reality to make it look more "dramatic" or "convincing", so I wouldn't be surprised at all if your perceptions were playing tricks on you - it's probably just a piece of clever editing.
EZY SOPs for takeoff are broadly the same as what Pilot Pete said, so either way, I think your sanity is OK (on this point at least!)
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Pilot Pete,
In jmc, the FO, even if PF could NOT make the decision to stop. It was always the Captain's decision. You could point out a failure, but it was always the captain's decision.
In Air2000 we could call stop, but the captain shut the levers and always had his/her hands on the levers.
In DHL it is like Britannia.
In Thomas Cook as it now is, both fleets still have the Captain only stop philosophy..... but on the Airbus the FO can taxy, speak to groundcrew etc when PF.
In jmc, the FO, even if PF could NOT make the decision to stop. It was always the Captain's decision. You could point out a failure, but it was always the captain's decision.
In Air2000 we could call stop, but the captain shut the levers and always had his/her hands on the levers.
In DHL it is like Britannia.
In Thomas Cook as it now is, both fleets still have the Captain only stop philosophy..... but on the Airbus the FO can taxy, speak to groundcrew etc when PF.
