cap371
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cap371
hi, cap 371 question.
4 sectors starting at 0615, max FDP 10hrs 45mins. If last sector finishes at 1700 can you legally taxy/position afterwards when positioning still counts as duty?
won't any positioning be outside max duty in this case?
thanks
4 sectors starting at 0615, max FDP 10hrs 45mins. If last sector finishes at 1700 can you legally taxy/position afterwards when positioning still counts as duty?
won't any positioning be outside max duty in this case?
thanks
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Unfortunetaly yes !
Positioning after a Flight Duty period has no practical limit at all. Although the time spent positioning does count as "duty", it does not count as "Flight duty time" after a flight or series of flights. This is not the case when positioning before a flight duty period when the FDP starts at the reporting time of the positioning sector. Positioning does not count as a sector for FDP purposes ( unless a split duty is involved with a positioning sector in between ).
The subsequent rest period is calculated from the total duty period prior.
There is a maximum flight duty period (FDP)
There isn't a Maximum duty period. (Outrageously in my opininon)
Positioning after a Flight Duty period has no practical limit at all. Although the time spent positioning does count as "duty", it does not count as "Flight duty time" after a flight or series of flights. This is not the case when positioning before a flight duty period when the FDP starts at the reporting time of the positioning sector. Positioning does not count as a sector for FDP purposes ( unless a split duty is involved with a positioning sector in between ).
The subsequent rest period is calculated from the total duty period prior.
There is a maximum flight duty period (FDP)
There isn't a Maximum duty period. (Outrageously in my opininon)
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Oddly enough, CAP371 lays down the law in terms of duty limits etc but sometimes seems to forget that crews are human. As an example, after a 2 sector night flight say, LGW-TFS-MAN, CAP371 allows the crews to position back to LGW. The FDP would end in MAN and the duty period would end in LGW. And the crew? Well, they would be knackered 
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Although there is no max duty period limit, there is the weekly, fortnightly & monthly limits. Doing a duty such as Viking9 has shown would be in the order of 15-16 hours, or over a quarter of your weekly duty hour max in one hit.
Secondly, the company would have a 'duty of care' over their employees under SHEQ after completing such a long duty. Normally hotac would be provided either in MAN before positioning back or in LGW if positioning straight back.
Secondly, the company would have a 'duty of care' over their employees under SHEQ after completing such a long duty. Normally hotac would be provided either in MAN before positioning back or in LGW if positioning straight back.
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Anyone care to comment on duties rostered to Max FDP?
I was recently rostered to 13 hours 15 minutes on a 2 sector day reporting at 1155 local.
The Max FDP for the duty is 13 hours 15 minutes.
Needless to say the flight went into discretion; that was obvious from the start.
Now, my argument is that such a duty is really operated to a legal maximum of 15 hours 15 minutes. You are unlikely to refuse to operate this duty at the outset!
I queried the duty with the Fleet Manager and was told that the CAA approved duties rostered to Max FDP and that was the end of the matter.
Is this common practice these days?
These duties are, in my humble opinion, too long.
I was recently rostered to 13 hours 15 minutes on a 2 sector day reporting at 1155 local.
The Max FDP for the duty is 13 hours 15 minutes.
Needless to say the flight went into discretion; that was obvious from the start.
Now, my argument is that such a duty is really operated to a legal maximum of 15 hours 15 minutes. You are unlikely to refuse to operate this duty at the outset!
I queried the duty with the Fleet Manager and was told that the CAA approved duties rostered to Max FDP and that was the end of the matter.
Is this common practice these days?
These duties are, in my humble opinion, too long.
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Yarpy,
You better get used to it. Duties are often scheduled to max FDP. There is nothing unusual in it. As you say any delay will put the flight into discretion and of course that is why discretion exists. Since it is possible to discress up to 3 hours for a single sector flight or prior to the last sector of a multi sector flight, it would be as well to prepare yourself for anything up to a 17 hour FDP ! In the example you give the FDP might extend to 16hrs & 15 minutes. The discretion is actually the "Commanders discretion". This will take into account the circumstances of individual crewmembers so if there is a compelling reason why you couldn't extend a duty it should be brought to the commanders attention as soon as possible.
Unfortunetaly it doesn't stop there. After completing this FDP the company can then shoehorn you into a charter airline seat, an economy class airline seat or into a coach for as long as it takes to get you back to base or wherever they want you next. In such circumstances it is not unheard of to have been on duty for 28 hours or more ! Yet this is perfectly legal. You might wonder what happens at the end of such a duty if you are unwilling or unfit to drive home. Well the company will provide a hotel or taxi for you at their cost, however they will often not consider this any part of your duty for allowances purposes or for subsequent rest calculations (as it constitutes rest of course). Non of this is conducive to prolonged good health but it is legal and it is the framework that many airlines operate to. It is a scandal !
You better get used to it. Duties are often scheduled to max FDP. There is nothing unusual in it. As you say any delay will put the flight into discretion and of course that is why discretion exists. Since it is possible to discress up to 3 hours for a single sector flight or prior to the last sector of a multi sector flight, it would be as well to prepare yourself for anything up to a 17 hour FDP ! In the example you give the FDP might extend to 16hrs & 15 minutes. The discretion is actually the "Commanders discretion". This will take into account the circumstances of individual crewmembers so if there is a compelling reason why you couldn't extend a duty it should be brought to the commanders attention as soon as possible.
Unfortunetaly it doesn't stop there. After completing this FDP the company can then shoehorn you into a charter airline seat, an economy class airline seat or into a coach for as long as it takes to get you back to base or wherever they want you next. In such circumstances it is not unheard of to have been on duty for 28 hours or more ! Yet this is perfectly legal. You might wonder what happens at the end of such a duty if you are unwilling or unfit to drive home. Well the company will provide a hotel or taxi for you at their cost, however they will often not consider this any part of your duty for allowances purposes or for subsequent rest calculations (as it constitutes rest of course). Non of this is conducive to prolonged good health but it is legal and it is the framework that many airlines operate to. It is a scandal !
