Close the door?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: cambridge
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Close the door?
I was a passenger last wek towards the front of a plane of a well known lo-co operator. I was surprised to see the plane start to move from its stand with the door still open, and crew standing next to it still shutting it. Is this usual, it sounds like a H+S issue. Should I report it as an 'incident'?
Open Door
Lawnmowerman wrote:
I take it that you are referring to the forward pax door (L1) and not the flight deck door. If that is the case it is at the least "not best practice".
YS
the plane start to move from its stand with the door still open
YS
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why can't it be open for a few seconds? As long as someone is there guarding the door and it is about to be closed, there is no problem. What exactly is your qualification for checking airlines operations like this? Are you some sort of self imposed 'route checker'?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not really the smartest thing to do - the doors are rigged to be correctly closed and latched with the a/c stationary, if the a/c is moving the whole thing flexes a bit and you may not get correct locking/latching. 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Age: 48
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What exactly is your qualification for checking airlines operations like this?
lawnmowerman, if you are curious ask the airline, you are wasting your time asking on PPRuNe.
lawnmowerman, if you are curious ask the airline, you are wasting your time asking on PPRuNe.
Open answers rather than caustic tend to calm down some of us from being foolish later.
NotSo - I wasn't aware that one needed "qualifications" in order to ask a simple and politely phrased question to improve one's knowledge and awareness.
Perhaps you've had a long day and we should make allowances.
And another thing...I, too, have seen CC struggling to close that door as the pushback starts. And it looked as if there was a risk of one of them falling out as the a/c moved, so I think it's fair to at least ASK if there's a H&S issue here.
Perhaps you've had a long day and we should make allowances.
And another thing...I, too, have seen CC struggling to close that door as the pushback starts. And it looked as if there was a risk of one of them falling out as the a/c moved, so I think it's fair to at least ASK if there's a H&S issue here.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If your talking about 737's then there is definately a H&S issue - there have been several instances of crew falling out of the a/c as they try to shut the doors - if the a/c were moving then the possiblity of injury is that much higher, I wouldn't fancy my chances if a Tug ran over me
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lmm - as far as 737s and similar go, it is NORMAL to check all doors closed before starting or moving. As JetII says, it can be extremely dangerous to be around an open door at that time. HOWEVER- you have not given a lot of detail and there may be a reason for it? E.g. Was it re-opened having been closed - perhaps the cockpit indications did not show it properly shut? Was there some technical requirement to have it open? Sometimes the external handle is not correctly stowed and by opening the door a little it can be. Perhaps the position of the internal handle had given some concern and the crew were re-setting it?
Certainly not normal practice as YOU describe it, but.......perhaps with more detail.....................?
Was a late passenger boarding?
Got to make schedule!!
Certainly not normal practice as YOU describe it, but.......perhaps with more detail.....................?
Was a late passenger boarding?
Got to make schedule!!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lawnmowerman's first question was fine. The threat of ..<<Is this usual, it sounds like a H+S issue. Should I report it as an 'incident'?>> ...I find disturbing and objectionable. On what basis does he speak? Did he take the trouble to ask whether the crew had to recycle the door on pushback (not unusual) or what other reason to push with the door open?
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Highly questionable in my opinion. Before start checklist anyone? In my outfit this is completed before the aircraft pushes and includes doors shut (obviously 
)
What if... the tug brakes hard...the shear pin snaps...the tug suddenly pushes a bit harder..... door snaps shut ... cabincrew loses balance and has hand in door frame.....big ouch. I think said Captain would be in deep sh1t.
Don't know about the flexing of the airframe but it certainly sounds plausible.
Notso .... why would you have to re-cycle a door during pushback if it has been confirmed closed and armed before pushing?
Why are some people in SUCH a hurry? A few seconds is all it takes.
A4
)What if... the tug brakes hard...the shear pin snaps...the tug suddenly pushes a bit harder..... door snaps shut ... cabincrew loses balance and has hand in door frame.....big ouch. I think said Captain would be in deep sh1t.
Don't know about the flexing of the airframe but it certainly sounds plausible.
Notso .... why would you have to re-cycle a door during pushback if it has been confirmed closed and armed before pushing?
Why are some people in SUCH a hurry? A few seconds is all it takes.
A4
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Anywhere that pays
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's hope he's just having a bad day?
You've really gotta feel sorry for Mrs Not-so, eh? Just hope she never runs out of gas.
PS Wasn't him doing aeros on go-round at LHR, was it....................?
You've really gotta feel sorry for Mrs Not-so, eh? Just hope she never runs out of gas.
PS Wasn't him doing aeros on go-round at LHR, was it....................?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: cambridge
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, didnt mean to start an argument, just looking for opinions
It was a 737, and they were in a hurry, plane was 1/2 hour late.
Isnt that how some accidents happen?
It was a 737, and they were in a hurry, plane was 1/2 hour late.
Isnt that how some accidents happen?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lawnmowerman, nobody said you were trying to start an argument. You were looking to nail someone though:
<<Is this usual, it sounds like a H+S issue. Should I report it as an 'incident'?>>
I don't think anybody would actually push back with pax with a door open. But I can think of many times we have opened the door during push. In, say, about a thousand shorthaul flights a year, it will happen- tech log pages still unpulled, signed loadsheet still onboard, cargo manifest documents on/off, late catering supplies, briefcases left in departure lounge and many more. Many is the time I have been hanging out of the flight deck window passing things in and out- what luck nobody could see from the cabin! I had no idea people were sitting there running their own Health & Safety assessments with their fingers on the 'I'll report this!' button! Happy hunting- maybe you'll get a really good scalp oneday, or maybe you could trust to your crew to conduct a pragmatic and reasonable operation, even if they are a lo-co carrier!
It's all very well having lots of wagging fingers 'this shouldn't happen' thunderous roars, but it does. People don't open that door unless it is needed and safe. And Mr. Mitty, comment on
Mrs. Notso is slightly suprfluous don't you think? She happens to be a very happy lady and was one of those people on the ground who used to pass things up through open doors during pushback when last minute things had to be chucked in.
<<Is this usual, it sounds like a H+S issue. Should I report it as an 'incident'?>>
I don't think anybody would actually push back with pax with a door open. But I can think of many times we have opened the door during push. In, say, about a thousand shorthaul flights a year, it will happen- tech log pages still unpulled, signed loadsheet still onboard, cargo manifest documents on/off, late catering supplies, briefcases left in departure lounge and many more. Many is the time I have been hanging out of the flight deck window passing things in and out- what luck nobody could see from the cabin! I had no idea people were sitting there running their own Health & Safety assessments with their fingers on the 'I'll report this!' button! Happy hunting- maybe you'll get a really good scalp oneday, or maybe you could trust to your crew to conduct a pragmatic and reasonable operation, even if they are a lo-co carrier!
It's all very well having lots of wagging fingers 'this shouldn't happen' thunderous roars, but it does. People don't open that door unless it is needed and safe. And Mr. Mitty, comment on
Mrs. Notso is slightly suprfluous don't you think? She happens to be a very happy lady and was one of those people on the ground who used to pass things up through open doors during pushback when last minute things had to be chucked in.
I don't think anybody would actually push back with pax with a door open.
Now, one hopes that the CC would report through either FS or H&S channels, but what is the well-intentioned SLF to do? He feels concerned - maybe he should do something. But what's the protocol? So he lets it go, but for future reference, he asks a question - on pPrune. Well, I call that reasonable. He doesn't deserve a blast for that.
Let me say at this point that I partly understand NotSo's concern. My outfit has suffered from stupid SLF reports such as, "The pilots were lost, they couldn't find the airport, they were twisting and turning all over the place" (really!) after a very busy bit of radar vectoring.
However, lmm didn't just go ahead and report - he asked what he should do. That's commendable. As for the answer, it's a matter of "When does a concerned bystander become an interfering busybody?" and that depends...
Last edited by keithl; 6th Apr 2004 at 14:11.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Notso:
"But I can think of many times we have opened the door during push."
I have to say I'm truly staggered at that ! I have never done or witnessed it once in 8 years of flying. Sure I've opened the DV window to throw a forgotton loadsheet - but that's always been before the aircraft has moved.
Can't see it leaving a particularly professional image with the SLF if the a/c jerks to halt and the door opens and some catering gets passed in! As said at the start, probably make the pax wonder what else has been "forgotten".
A4
"But I can think of many times we have opened the door during push."
I have to say I'm truly staggered at that ! I have never done or witnessed it once in 8 years of flying. Sure I've opened the DV window to throw a forgotton loadsheet - but that's always been before the aircraft has moved.
Can't see it leaving a particularly professional image with the SLF if the a/c jerks to halt and the door opens and some catering gets passed in! As said at the start, probably make the pax wonder what else has been "forgotten".
A4