Crosswind limit on airliner's
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Crosswind limit on airliner's
Hi all
I'm not too sure whether this is the correct forum to post this, but anyway..
I fly a PA 38 and the crosswind limit for the student is 11 kts, and I'm wondering what are the crosswind limits on the larger passenger jet?
...there are lots of airline pilots here, so I should be spoilt for info
Cheers
I'm not too sure whether this is the correct forum to post this, but anyway..
I fly a PA 38 and the crosswind limit for the student is 11 kts, and I'm wondering what are the crosswind limits on the larger passenger jet?
...there are lots of airline pilots here, so I should be spoilt for info
Cheers
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737 has a "demonstrated" crosswind limit of 35/36kts.
Once whilst training in an AA5, myself and the instructor got caught out by the gales about 15 months ago - not very clever I think you'll agree (never predicted it in the TAF's however). We got it down in a 40kt x-wind, and were more than a little sweaty afterwards!
Makes you wonder what the "undemonstrated" limit on a larger a/c could be...... any good stories from any one out there?
Once whilst training in an AA5, myself and the instructor got caught out by the gales about 15 months ago - not very clever I think you'll agree (never predicted it in the TAF's however). We got it down in a 40kt x-wind, and were more than a little sweaty afterwards!
Makes you wonder what the "undemonstrated" limit on a larger a/c could be...... any good stories from any one out there?
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The demonstrated x-wind limits as mentioned above will be from boeing.
All airlines do have their own operational x-wind limitations for the type they fly. These limits range between limits for take off and limits for landing for various runway conditions, ie: dry wet or contaminated (then usually split into limits for type/depth of contamination).
They may sound quite high when used to flying smaller a/c, but the jet will come down just as much sideways as any other plane, and a lot quicker!
All airlines do have their own operational x-wind limitations for the type they fly. These limits range between limits for take off and limits for landing for various runway conditions, ie: dry wet or contaminated (then usually split into limits for type/depth of contamination).
They may sound quite high when used to flying smaller a/c, but the jet will come down just as much sideways as any other plane, and a lot quicker!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Bobby Guzzler makes a good point.
There are three types of crosswind limits. The manufacturer's "demonstrated" limit, the company's limit, and the limit of what the aircraft can actually handle.
I don't know the PA38, but 11kt sounds a little low to me, so I'd guess it's probably a company (i.e. school or club) limit? I would guess that the number in the POH is a little higher (please correct me if I'm wrong) - this will be the "demonstrated" limit, and is often limited simply by how much crosswind the test pilot could find on the day he was doing his crosswind tests.
The actual limit in some cases will be very close to the demonstrated limit, and in other cases will be much higher. I've landed a PA18 (demonstrated limit, if I remember correctly, is 12kt, but I may be wrong - it's been a couple of years since I last flew one) in a gusty 25kt crosswind without any sweat at all. (Doubt I could do it now - I was much more current at the time than I am now.)
In the world of commercial transport, though, I suspect that the aircraft's actual limit is pretty unimportant, because the pilots won't be allowed to exceed the company's limit in any case?
FFF
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There are three types of crosswind limits. The manufacturer's "demonstrated" limit, the company's limit, and the limit of what the aircraft can actually handle.
I don't know the PA38, but 11kt sounds a little low to me, so I'd guess it's probably a company (i.e. school or club) limit? I would guess that the number in the POH is a little higher (please correct me if I'm wrong) - this will be the "demonstrated" limit, and is often limited simply by how much crosswind the test pilot could find on the day he was doing his crosswind tests.
The actual limit in some cases will be very close to the demonstrated limit, and in other cases will be much higher. I've landed a PA18 (demonstrated limit, if I remember correctly, is 12kt, but I may be wrong - it's been a couple of years since I last flew one) in a gusty 25kt crosswind without any sweat at all. (Doubt I could do it now - I was much more current at the time than I am now.)
In the world of commercial transport, though, I suspect that the aircraft's actual limit is pretty unimportant, because the pilots won't be allowed to exceed the company's limit in any case?
FFF
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Cheers for the info guys!
I would imagine that my crosswind limit in my PA 38 is a company/flying school chosen limit.
The 737's crosswind limit is just a tad more than the Piper's
I bet that 40kt crosswind was damn interesting!
I had an experience late last year, landing into Goodwood, and it was the first time I'd been flying to the airfield, and the winds there weren't exactly pleasant to say the least, but on the second try I landed it - a bit of a sweaty experience!
....but hey this is what flying is all about, encountering challenging situations.
I would imagine that my crosswind limit in my PA 38 is a company/flying school chosen limit.
The 737's crosswind limit is just a tad more than the Piper's
I bet that 40kt crosswind was damn interesting!
I had an experience late last year, landing into Goodwood, and it was the first time I'd been flying to the airfield, and the winds there weren't exactly pleasant to say the least, but on the second try I landed it - a bit of a sweaty experience!
....but hey this is what flying is all about, encountering challenging situations.
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From what I can remember PA38 limit is about 13kts.
I've put one down in a 19kt x-wind with out too much trouble. (caught out by inacurate forcasts!)
I belive the ATR 42 limits are apx - 35kts on a wet runway and 45kts in the dry. (quite impressive)
757 is 40 kts dry and apparently 10kts wet (I suspect this to be a little higher)
A320 is apx 33kts
747's are 30 kts dry, 25kts wet
Some useless info for ya!!
I've put one down in a 19kt x-wind with out too much trouble. (caught out by inacurate forcasts!)
I belive the ATR 42 limits are apx - 35kts on a wet runway and 45kts in the dry. (quite impressive)
757 is 40 kts dry and apparently 10kts wet (I suspect this to be a little higher)
A320 is apx 33kts
747's are 30 kts dry, 25kts wet
Some useless info for ya!!
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JAR and FAR regulations require the manufacturer of an airliner to demonstrate TO and Landing with a crosswind component of 0.2x Vstall, except that he must demonstrate 20 knots however low his stall speed is but doesn't have to demonstrate more than 25 knots however high it is. They usually try to demonstrate as much as they can find, but run out of time while trying to get the a/c certificated. They may give a number for their simulator experience, but that's only as good as the simulator, which may not be based on valid data in ground effect etc.
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I may be wrong here but my understanding whilst learning was that the x-wind limit (on C152 anyway) was what the A/C could take without removing the drift. Anyone confirm this? I wouldn't want to try anyway.
Only half a speed-brake
On my 737 course, the grande-finale was a circle to land with engine inop and the above mentioned 35kt from the "bad side" (well, apart from the following gear collapse and ensuing fire)
. I wonder if the max demonstrated x-wind has something to do with the OEI requirement?
However, I have learned to fly on Zlins Z-142s and Z-43s (singles) that had 24 kt limit and L-200 (twin) with 22 kt, if I'm not mistaken. The rumor has it, that in the days passed (thank God!) successful students would find themselfs progressing to the airline for Yak-40s with HUGE tails and quite high CofG with 20kt limit and meet their younger conterparts, future colleagues over same AD. The airline drivers would have diverted while the youngsters with beloved and remembered instructors (lauging their a**e off) would have landed on a very rewarding training lesson with limiting wind.
:
. I wonder if the max demonstrated x-wind has something to do with the OEI requirement?However, I have learned to fly on Zlins Z-142s and Z-43s (singles) that had 24 kt limit and L-200 (twin) with 22 kt, if I'm not mistaken. The rumor has it, that in the days passed (thank God!) successful students would find themselfs progressing to the airline for Yak-40s with HUGE tails and quite high CofG with 20kt limit and meet their younger conterparts, future colleagues over same AD. The airline drivers would have diverted while the youngsters with beloved and remembered instructors (lauging their a**e off) would have landed on a very rewarding training lesson with limiting wind.
:
737 crosswind
The demonstrated crosswind components is listed as 35 kts for the -300 and 31kts for the -200.
Additional recommended guidlines from Boeing are as follows:
Runway condition Crosswind
Dry 40 kts
Wet 25 kts
Standing Water/Slush 16 kts
Snow 21 kts
Ice 7 kts
Remember to use your crosswind aileron on Takeoff and Rollout.
Stearperson
Additional recommended guidlines from Boeing are as follows:
Runway condition Crosswind
Dry 40 kts
Wet 25 kts
Standing Water/Slush 16 kts
Snow 21 kts
Ice 7 kts
Remember to use your crosswind aileron on Takeoff and Rollout.
Stearperson
Last edited by Stearperson; 1st Feb 2004 at 13:12.
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Just for interests sake, here are the landing limits for the acft I fly:
A333: X-wind - 32kts Gusting 40kts
A343: X-wind - 27kts Gusting 33kts
A346: X-wind - 22kts Gusting 28kts (28 for TO)
Company limits restrict FOs to 15kts in all cases.*
Spike: great to hear you went around when you didnt like it; nothing worse than pushing a bad approach. FYI if the wind is outside limits we will not land......we'll divert. Flight safety and 'career safety' will always take priority.
**Of course we will shoot the approach and ask the tower for the wind on short final - we wont flag it away just 'cos the Met man with the crystal ball says so in the TAF.
Hope all this helps you.
Felix
A333: X-wind - 32kts Gusting 40kts
A343: X-wind - 27kts Gusting 33kts
A346: X-wind - 22kts Gusting 28kts (28 for TO)
Company limits restrict FOs to 15kts in all cases.*
Spike: great to hear you went around when you didnt like it; nothing worse than pushing a bad approach. FYI if the wind is outside limits we will not land......we'll divert. Flight safety and 'career safety' will always take priority.
**Of course we will shoot the approach and ask the tower for the wind on short final - we wont flag it away just 'cos the Met man with the crystal ball says so in the TAF.
Hope all this helps you.
Felix
Last edited by Felix Lighter; 2nd Feb 2004 at 09:40.
Sounds like it! A lot of commercial companies limit FOs. The RAF doesn't however. The x-wind limit for the VC10 is 28 knots dry / 20 knots wet regardless of who is flying it. My first commercial company limited FOs to 20 knots, my present 15 knots. However, at the discretion of a training captain it can be the aircraft limit and hats off to the training captain who let me land at the aircraft limit on my base training!
The 747-400 has a limit of 36 knots dry / 32 knots wet. The Boeing training manual reports these as being recommended as 'a result of in service reports and engineering data'. Whereas the 747-300 has a max 'demonstrated' limit of 30 knots dry / 25 knots wet. My operator has made these company limits.
As you can see, the limits are set or reported on different criteria - and I suspect the flight manuals are written with as much consultation to the company's lawyers as their test pilots! It is down to the operator as to which limit he wants to use.
Incidently, a swept wing jet tends to have lower crosswind limits than you would expect - compare the Bulldog's limit of 35 knots in RAF service with the 28 knots of a VC10. This is because when you induce yaw on a swept wing, it's lift increases proprtionally more than a straight wing. A lot of aileron has to be input to keep the wings level when kicking off the drift. The VC10 limit is 28 knots, because at 28 knots crosswind you have applied full aileron to counter the secondary roll.
The 747-400 has a limit of 36 knots dry / 32 knots wet. The Boeing training manual reports these as being recommended as 'a result of in service reports and engineering data'. Whereas the 747-300 has a max 'demonstrated' limit of 30 knots dry / 25 knots wet. My operator has made these company limits.
As you can see, the limits are set or reported on different criteria - and I suspect the flight manuals are written with as much consultation to the company's lawyers as their test pilots! It is down to the operator as to which limit he wants to use.
Incidently, a swept wing jet tends to have lower crosswind limits than you would expect - compare the Bulldog's limit of 35 knots in RAF service with the 28 knots of a VC10. This is because when you induce yaw on a swept wing, it's lift increases proprtionally more than a straight wing. A lot of aileron has to be input to keep the wings level when kicking off the drift. The VC10 limit is 28 knots, because at 28 knots crosswind you have applied full aileron to counter the secondary roll.
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D2D
For clarification in our company:
1. FOs restrcited to 15kts......but
2. Trg Capts can allow FOs to operate up to 25kts and,
3. Base Trg Capts can allow FOs to operate up to max limits.
My use of "in all cases" was misleading. Sorry.
For clarification in our company:
1. FOs restrcited to 15kts......but
2. Trg Capts can allow FOs to operate up to 25kts and,
3. Base Trg Capts can allow FOs to operate up to max limits.
My use of "in all cases" was misleading. Sorry.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I may be wrong here but my understanding whilst learning was that the x-wind limit (on C152 anyway) was what the A/C could take without removing the drift
The maximum demonstrated crosswind is exactly what its name implies: it's the maximum crosswind which has been demonstrated as being possible to handle safely.
FFF
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QUOTE
Take Off 29 gusting 38
Landing 33 gusting 38.
UNQUOTE
So how do you know the gust value? I thought it was only reported when it exceeded the mean value by 10 kts or more?
In addition, the gust value is over the last 5 mins (I think). I tend to ask for and use the instant wind just before touchdown if I suspect it will be close to limits. Is this incorrect?
PS: There is no apostrophe in a plural: "Crosswind limit on airliners"
Take Off 29 gusting 38
Landing 33 gusting 38.
UNQUOTE
So how do you know the gust value? I thought it was only reported when it exceeded the mean value by 10 kts or more?
In addition, the gust value is over the last 5 mins (I think). I tend to ask for and use the instant wind just before touchdown if I suspect it will be close to limits. Is this incorrect?
PS: There is no apostrophe in a plural: "Crosswind limit on airliners"
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Flyingforfun said in part....
"The maximum demonstrated crosswind is exactly what its name implies: it's the maximum crosswind which has been demonstrated as being possible to handle safely."
Aviate1138 sas...
In a taildragger, I would approach slightly offset to the active and at or near the point of flare, turn into wind, land across the runway and clear in one easy manouver. Especially if conditions were marginal for a crosswind landing. Don't let ATC try and make you land on an unsuitable runway! Your groundspeed would be so low the braking distance would be in just a few aircraft lengths. Not the same for the Big Boys - they have to earn their pennies, we can be cunning little devils.
Aviate1138 - another flying for fun person
"The maximum demonstrated crosswind is exactly what its name implies: it's the maximum crosswind which has been demonstrated as being possible to handle safely."
Aviate1138 sas...
In a taildragger, I would approach slightly offset to the active and at or near the point of flare, turn into wind, land across the runway and clear in one easy manouver. Especially if conditions were marginal for a crosswind landing. Don't let ATC try and make you land on an unsuitable runway! Your groundspeed would be so low the braking distance would be in just a few aircraft lengths. Not the same for the Big Boys - they have to earn their pennies, we can be cunning little devils.
Aviate1138 - another flying for fun person
JAR and FAR regulations require the manufacturer of an airliner to demonstrate TO and Landing with a crosswind component of 0.2x Vstall, except that he must demonstrate 20 knots however low his stall speed is but doesn't have to demonstrate more than 25 knots however high it is. They usually try to demonstrate as much as they can find, but run out of time while trying to get the a/c certificated.