Was he pulling my leg ?
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Join Date: Feb 2000
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Was he pulling my leg ?
I arrived in Dub today and I noticed a BA777 sitting on the tarmac near the FLS facility. I asked a friend who works in Ops for EI what it was doing there. He told me that it was enroute to the states when for technical reasons the Pilot had to shut down one engine and so it diverted into Dub.
Here is my question. He told me that BA were trying to get permission to fly it back to Blighty on a single engine operation. I have never heard of this. Could this flight take place. How would the Pilots feel about undertaking this flight. During the summer I observed a bird strike on a FR 732 just as it rotated in Dublin. It lost an engine but returned safely to the field. In light of this I suspect that if a single engine operation flight was to take place it might induce a high "pucker" factor amongst the operating crew.
Could someone enlighten me.
Many Thanks
Here is my question. He told me that BA were trying to get permission to fly it back to Blighty on a single engine operation. I have never heard of this. Could this flight take place. How would the Pilots feel about undertaking this flight. During the summer I observed a bird strike on a FR 732 just as it rotated in Dublin. It lost an engine but returned safely to the field. In light of this I suspect that if a single engine operation flight was to take place it might induce a high "pucker" factor amongst the operating crew.
Could someone enlighten me.
Many Thanks
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Pulling your leg and/or his on pud, I suspect!!
Procedures are in place for 3 engine ferry flights of 747 and A340 etc but not on twins.
For a start there is not enough rudder to keep the thing straight on the ground at take off power below Vmca....so to get to take off speed would require a very low (relative) thrust setting which means about a 10mile long runway (poetic licence).
Still good story...... glad you saw through it (or better still had the commonsense to ask)
Ask your friend about his theory and Vmca...that should shut him up.
Procedures are in place for 3 engine ferry flights of 747 and A340 etc but not on twins.
For a start there is not enough rudder to keep the thing straight on the ground at take off power below Vmca....so to get to take off speed would require a very low (relative) thrust setting which means about a 10mile long runway (poetic licence).
Still good story...... glad you saw through it (or better still had the commonsense to ask)
Ask your friend about his theory and Vmca...that should shut him up.
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Ferry takeoffs are permitted on 4-engined aircraft, starting with one inoperative and assuming a second one on the same side fails at V1. No passengers are allowed and the weight is restricted because you still have to be able to climb on two live engines if you have an engine failure during the takeoff. You'd normally have to start the run with symmetric power and bring up the third engine as speed increased as otherwise the rudder wouldn't cope. This of course lengthens the ground run.
Some ferry takeoff trials were done in the UK on the Tristar some years ago. Nosewheel steering was used to oppose the asymmetric thrust, and there was a possibility that the nw steering stalled due to the load on it.
Most manufacturers will clear ferry ops because it is a selling point that their aircraft can do it. However, I suspect that most airlines would prefer to change the faulty engine where it is rather than incur the risk of an unfamiliar operation and the associated insurance penalties. I'd be interested to hear from any pilot who has done one for real. There was a case which came to light a year or so ago in which some 747 operator from the far east took off with a damaged engine immobilised with some infant seat straps, with pax on board, and attempted to fly to the USA. Running short of fuel, he lobbed into somewhere in Germany to get some more and the authorities grounded the jet.
The bottom line, however, is that nobody in their right mind would try it in a twin.
Some ferry takeoff trials were done in the UK on the Tristar some years ago. Nosewheel steering was used to oppose the asymmetric thrust, and there was a possibility that the nw steering stalled due to the load on it.
Most manufacturers will clear ferry ops because it is a selling point that their aircraft can do it. However, I suspect that most airlines would prefer to change the faulty engine where it is rather than incur the risk of an unfamiliar operation and the associated insurance penalties. I'd be interested to hear from any pilot who has done one for real. There was a case which came to light a year or so ago in which some 747 operator from the far east took off with a damaged engine immobilised with some infant seat straps, with pax on board, and attempted to fly to the USA. Running short of fuel, he lobbed into somewhere in Germany to get some more and the authorities grounded the jet.
The bottom line, however, is that nobody in their right mind would try it in a twin.
still learning....
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3 eng. ferry
northwing-
I'm in charge of the 3 engine ferry program at my airline, and I've done a number of them "for real".
There is no V1 on a 3 fry takeoff. If anything happens on the ground at any speed, we keep it on the ground. There is also no obstacle clearance guarantees if you lose a 2nd engine. The only 2 engine performance that is required is a gross 1.2% gradient in final segment.
To protect ourselves to some extent, if the runway permits it, we increase the Vr speed to the min 2 engine Vmca and climb at that speed in second segment.
No way anyone's going to try a single engine t/o. (I hope!)
I'm in charge of the 3 engine ferry program at my airline, and I've done a number of them "for real".
There is no V1 on a 3 fry takeoff. If anything happens on the ground at any speed, we keep it on the ground. There is also no obstacle clearance guarantees if you lose a 2nd engine. The only 2 engine performance that is required is a gross 1.2% gradient in final segment.
To protect ourselves to some extent, if the runway permits it, we increase the Vr speed to the min 2 engine Vmca and climb at that speed in second segment.
No way anyone's going to try a single engine t/o. (I hope!)
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Well it may not count, but the cert pilots have to do it to prove you can make it if you fail the critical engine at V1. They do start the takeoff roll with two engines, but they know they will be climbing out on one. 
Seen plenty of abuse takeoffs with the pilot intentionally dragging the tail for hundreds of yards to prove you can't drag the tail and still make it. 
Seen plenty of abuse takeoffs with the pilot intentionally dragging the tail for hundreds of yards to prove you can't drag the tail and still make it.
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Northwing -
Check out this R&N thread
I'd be interested to hear from any pilot who has done one for real. There was a case which came to light a year or so ago in which some 747 operator from the far east took off with a damaged engine immobilised with some infant seat straps, with pax on board, and attempted to fly to the USA. Running short of fuel, he lobbed into somewhere in Germany to get some more and the authorities grounded the jet.
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3 eng ferry
My old outfit had detailed procedures for 3 eng ferry on the 747. Senior Check Capt LHS, Training Capt RHS, and Check Engineer (on the Classic). All to have done a training programme for this, with the whole crew to do a Sim refresher immediately before departing for the recovery. Gives you an idea of how it was viewed as a procedure of last resort.
This was also demonstrated by an Asian carrier in Manila. A construction truck gets stuck in the mud, 747-200 taxying in clobbers it with an engine. Management pilot nips down to recover it, and it didn't work bigtime. When I saw it a couple of days later they had managed to clear it off the side of the runway, but the nosewheel was sticking out from the side of the E & E bay and the remainder was also a mess.....I believe it was written off later. The airline in question later applied for a ferry out of Hong Kong, but were unable to supply the CAD with details of their training programme or qualified pilots, so no go.
Also know someone who watched a well-known cowboy in Scotland many years ago try to recover a Twin Commanche from an island strip with one inop. He also ended up in the weeds with a write-off!
To be approached with Major Caution I think
This was also demonstrated by an Asian carrier in Manila. A construction truck gets stuck in the mud, 747-200 taxying in clobbers it with an engine. Management pilot nips down to recover it, and it didn't work bigtime. When I saw it a couple of days later they had managed to clear it off the side of the runway, but the nosewheel was sticking out from the side of the E & E bay and the remainder was also a mess.....I believe it was written off later. The airline in question later applied for a ferry out of Hong Kong, but were unable to supply the CAD with details of their training programme or qualified pilots, so no go.
Also know someone who watched a well-known cowboy in Scotland many years ago try to recover a Twin Commanche from an island strip with one inop. He also ended up in the weeds with a write-off!
To be approached with Major Caution I think
The late Ted Smith designed the original Aero Commander 500. He once flew one from the plant in Bethany OK to Washington DC with the left propeller in the baggage compartment.
Here's why you shouldn't try this
Check this accident report to see what happens if you try a single engine take-off in a twin........
Lear 35 accident - click here
Lear 35 accident - click here
