Is it all worth it?
 

Hi guys (and girls)
I'm in need of some genuine advice as i'm feeling rather despondant at this time.
I need to know if there is any light at the end of this long tunnel?
I'll cut this long story short (ish).
I'm 29 and am desperate to become a professional pilot. I'm seriously thinking about doing the expensive (albeit comprehensive) Oxford Aviation APP Ab-Initio course but obviously with such a big outlay i'm slightly concerned. I'm in the process of getting funding together for it (Mummy and Daddy definately aren't an option for me) but at the moment it looks like I'm going to have to rely on 100% bank loan; if I can get it!
I suppose the most important question would have to be: will i get a job at the end of it (Oxford tell me i will!!!). Will I then have to pay for a Type Rating at the end of it myself? It seems like I need copious amounts of money dripping from various different crevices

I keep reading (on other threads on this site) of how many out of work CPL/IR and fATPL pilots there are and I'm worried to say the least.

I don't want anyone to make the decision for me, I would just like some good, independant and genuine advice....I say genuine because I know I may be future competition for you but would ask you to put that aside.

The last question would have to be: Is it all worth it

Hi,

I was also 29 when I started. Have all the paperwork now but no airline job......yet! Instructing at weekends and run a small business in the week.

Doesn't matter what Oxford say there's NO guarantee of a job. Unless you're sponsored everyone takes a gamble with pilot training. As far as type ratings go, if things continue the way they are now, before long a type rating will be part of ab initio training and no one will bat an eyelid!:\ That will be a sad day indeed. For all our sakes I hope I'm wrong!

Is it all worth it? Only you will know the answer to that. I think if you stick at it long enough you will most probably achieve it BUT at what cost? I hear people say flying is the ultimate mistress and that's a pretty accurate statement. It's addictive and if it's in your blood I guess you'll have to give it a go but be prepared to spend a fortune and if you have a wife and family make sure they don't feel left out EVER. Also be ready for sleepless nights, waking up with a cold sweat wondering what the hell possessed you to become a pilot. There'll be lots of dark moments too, when you feel the whole world is against you and nothing seems to go right. Stick at it!

The industry is fickle and unstable and most pilots accept the insecurity that brings. When things are good they are VERY good but when things are bad, you soon reach the bowels of hell!

If you want stability and security this is not the industry for you. No one enters flying to make loads of money!

Good luck.

Madandy

check your PMs

PP

madandy, i seem to remember a post with exactly the same title as yours being started only a few weeks ago, try a few searches on it. as for the 100% bank loan, well if you're thinking about the OATS APP then you're looking at a £72000 overall and I personally think that there are much better packages to be had for about half that, which would leave you with a nice sum to complete a instructor rating/easyjet type-rating sponsorship etc.
is it all worth it? It'd F###cking better be!!!!!!!!! hahahaha!!! and i'm sure it is!

1) I need to know if there is any light at the end of this long tunnel?
So they say. I believe them.

2) will i get a job at the end of it? (Oxford tell me i will!!!).
Perhaps not for a while but sooner or later you should get a break. Despite popular belief even the old sponsored cadets from way-back-when were not guaranteed a job after completing their training. Oxford will tell you anything to get you to part with your money. Never listen to training providers for anything other than training information and even then get it confirmed from a third party.

3) Will I then have to pay for a Type Rating at the end of it myself?
It's looking increasingly that way I'm afraid. Most airlines sooner or later will take Ryanairs lead and ask inexperienced pilots to pay for their rating. Out of the three newbies I know who got jobs this year, two paid for their rating. It's no use trying to unite job seekers into refusing to pay for ratings either. This topic has risen on PPRuNe before and clearly indicated there're plenty of eager beavers out there willing to sell their granny to get a flying job. This seems to be acceptable too so therefore the more socialistic amongst us are clearly lacking the required dedication to succeed as a pilot it would appear. It seems pointless trying to make a stand against this trend so it would be prudent to prepare yourself for financing your first type rating.

The last question would have to be: Is it all worth it?
See answer one above.

VFE.

Yes, it is all worth it.

Most airline pilots you will ever meet paid lots of money and took huge gambles and worked very hard to be where they are. Few would ever swap jobs.

Its rubbish hard work lots of the time. But sometimes its wonderful. And thats more than most people can claim about their jobs.

Good luck,

WWW

You'll need a bloody good sense of humour I can tell you.
Why? Because when crewing forget to book you a hotel or taxi and you are standing around waiting to get into your "room" or a taxi so you can go home you can remember just why you started this game.
Don't think I am joking? Ha! I am not. Perhaps it is better in the SLF world but in the freight world you are just another money making cog in the wheel.
Oh I forgot, crewing will also forget to book you a flight home. (When positioning).
Min rest. I love it.

For what it's worth, I am one of the ones who did not have to pay vast amounts of money to get into this industry 15 years ago.

Would I do it again?? Never! especially if I had to pay the amount you guys have to today.

I would SERIOUSLY consider a different proffesion and fly for fun at the weekends.

The money at the end of the tunnel is just not worth the outlay.

EZY glider:

I used to think that, so I took the plunge (OK, post 9/11) and went for a different career (ATC). Didn't get on with it... don't know whether it was just ATC or the whole non-flying thing, but after a few months in the ATC sim I yearned to be back flying. I still do.

They kicked me off the ATC course I was on, and the first thing I did was examine seriously whether I wanted to spend £25K getting myself an ATPL.

My conclusion? I start at BCFT in 25 days, and I can't wait!

Madandy,

two things:

1. Dont spend any money until you have got a Class 1 medical
2. Everything Xwind limits said is right, I thing flying is a little bit like the lottery, you have to be in it to win at it.

cheers

MJR

WX Man,

What I am saying is that the outlay, (£25.000 seems to be on the conserative side,) is not worth your POSSIBLE renumeration at the end of the tunnel.

I am a 757/767 skipper and am painfully aware that my spending power in real terms is less now than it was 15 years ago and will almost certainly continue to decrease over the next 15 years.

My advice as someone who has "been there done it," become a lawyer and make some real money!

This game is just not the same as it used to be.

Well I've been there and done that on the old money making front and I have to say there is more to life than making lots of lolly. It may keep the wife and kids happy but it won't do much for you when you look back at 60 and say 'what if I'd gone after my dream?'. A 'what if' too many for some.

D McQuire - very well put, couldn't agree more.

FFF
-------------

Think long and hard about it
 

No one has a crystal ball and who can say you'll enjoy it, I'm 1/2 way thru my atpl exams and am having serious concerns about carrying on.

The are literally 1000's upon 1000's of pilots out there unemployed at the moment, some with a barebones fatpl to 1000's of hours on type who are unemployed.

When I go to these god awful exams (atpls) everyones talking the big talk thinking the're Mr. charlie big potatoes but there all looking thru rosie glasses abit.

It begins to dawn on you than fanciful idea may not be the right idea, sure everyone knows some one who's got themselves a job and loves to talk about it. but at these exam venues you'll meet 100's & I mean literally 100's of people who are doing what you are doing makes you think a little i tell you.

All these very well experienced pilots, All these military jocks just waiting in the RAF until things pick up. Where does that leave you? Okay if you Daddy is a pilot for BA etc


Personally i thinking of putting of putting a down payment on a nice motor boat somewhere nice in Florida/Australia and taking rich tourists out fishing every day, charging them $60 an hour, for game fishing.

Seems a lot easier than all this B*****t and doing at the moment.

But we'll see

Don't listen to all the crap the flight schools give about oh you'll definitely get a job, yeh they'll sell you there own mother if they'd think it would convince you, you'd get a flying job.

Well I'm off to ponder the future.

Always makes me chuckle when a qualified and experienced pilot posts in wannabes and tells it like it is. Nobody ever listens! :D

It's easy to downplay something which most would deem exciting when you've (in Easy Gliders words) been there and done it. I played in bands for about seven years, enjoying pub lock-in's with free beer till we dropped, girls chatting US up, cash on the hip for playing music we loved for about an hour and a half each night. I gave that up because it lost the edge for me. It was becoming obvious that I was quite likely to make the break into something big when I decided to quit too so I'm perhaps more stupid than most but it was boring me.

Ring any bells regarding your flying experience does it Easy Glider?

Funny thing is - now I've had a break of about two years or more from anything remotely resembling the musical workload I had before I kinda miss it and plan to start playing again when I've got my pilot ticket but I digress......

I don't think I could convince anyone other than actual musicians that being a musician is anything other than exciting and wild but the downsides I experienced which eventually led me to drop it and follow the airline pilot dream rarely get mentioned as it's the downside to something seemingly rosy. Most things have downsides - that's life.

Money is not the main factor for most wannabe pilots just like it isn't the motivating force behind being a musician. It's the love for it which drives you and not the possible rewards so you'd do better to tell us all what it is about your working day that bores you so much Easy Glider rather than tell us all to become lawyers which most I'd imagine have zero interest in becoming.

Anyone who thinks about giving up does not have the dedication to succed in flying or music. Grasping the similarities with flying and music here? I know one thing - all those pilots I've met have one underlying similarity: determination and the 'I won't take any s**t which life throws at me' factor.

I can sympathise with Easy Gliders feelings regarding a career in aviation and applaud him for standing up and saying it's not worth following. It's the nature of the beast that most here won't take a blind bit of notice. Survival instinct if you will.

VFE.

I was once told by a guy at the CAA that something like 75% of those sitting in the exam halls never go on to fly commercially.

What you have to remember is that an awful lot of them are re-sitting, they are not all there for the first time. Many of them will not get all the exams in their three attempts and will give up then. Many run out of money and give up after (which is when it gets expensive.) Many get the licence issued and then give up by letting things lapse and going back to earn money doing what they were doing before. So you can see how easily it is for the number actually gaining airline pilot employment to be significantly lower than those you see in the exam halls.

The one thing that is guaranteed in this industry is that if you do not show strong determination you will fall by the wayside. Now is a particularly harsh time to be seeking that first airline appointment, but times have been like this before. The ones who stuck at it got through and do work for airlines now. The same applies today. You may not get that job now, it may take a year or two, but use that time as well as you can to gain more hours and experience anywhere, flying anything and you will be displaying the determination that will bring you the reward at some point in the future.

So gabu, it all comes down to how much you want it. You are experiencing the tough times right now and we all remember those exams and how difficult they can be. If you are not 100% committed to a flying career you will become one of those statistics. What I would say is that if you would prefer to be selling fishing boat trips then go and do it now before you commit large sums of cash to the rest of your flying training. If you have to fly then this will get you through the tough times.

As for choosing to become a lawyer or doctor or anything else because it would pay more money, well that's fine, but don't expect to have it easier training for one of these careers, especially if you're 30+. Sure there are disgruntled pilots, but I would guess that there are disgruntled individuals in every job known to man, except perhaps astronauts?!;)

Things will turn around, they always do and if you are still in the hunt and want it enough you will get a job flying, it just might take longer than wanted. The main thing to remember in the current market is to do everything possible to minimise risk of failure should you be lucky enough to get an opportunity, but then again if you want it enough you would already know that....

PP

Don't ignore Easy Glider's comments without giving serious thought to their origins.

I've posted on the realities of the job before, and can completely agree with his sentiments.

I think the bottom line is, you're getting into a profession which will seriously curtail your freedoms. As long as you understand the implications of that, then fine.

This job will make huge demands on your time, your health, your bank balance and your family. It has ruined more marriages than I've ever seen.

And on top of all that, you will always remain an employee, a pawn to be used when needed in someone else's wealth creation scheme. And completely disposable when times are tough. No chance to become a partner in this business, or set up your own practice, or be creative, or diversify.

How do the airline bosses view you? For the most part as taxi drivers who don't have the wherewithall to go out and make some real money like them. Don't expect any respect or consideration from them.

Once you finally secure that airline seat, the job basically doesn't change significantly until you retire at the other end. And all you will have is memories. You carried tens of thousands of people from A to B. That's it. Nothing else to show for your labours.

Not trying to put anyone off, but be prepared for the reality.

Good post Maximum !! Without wishing to sound like a wet blanket, I would reiterate Maximums and Easy Gliders´ posts. It´s certainly not the job it was 15 yrs ago when I joined, and even then I can remember the Captains telling me the same....
The job has gone progressively downhill. If you want to fly aeroplanes for a living, then great, go for it, but if I had my time again, I wouldn´t have chosen this career, given a choice between going into the city, law or running my own business.
That´s not to say I don´t make the best of it, however, it is amazing how many people at Big Airways are counting the days until retirement....

Just my two penneth worth, is it worth it?

Can't tell you that yet, still instructing, from where I am at the moment on a very meagre wage the answer is no.

A bit of background for you.

Am a third generation farmer, silver spoon in my mouth definately not, worked hard, really hard for twenty years to build some sort of future for myself and my family. For anyone in the know its the ultimate dead mans shoes job, work like a dog until the old man croaks, then maybe you control your destiny!

Methinks at 38, ****** this, could be an oap before it comes right and decides to down size house and retrain. What a good move it was, farming is not so good now and the family, read father, makes me redundant on 24 Dec last year!!!

So guess it depends where you are coming from, leave a well paid job to persue a career in Aviation, possibly think again, its a long hard road and I'm just on the first rung.

I want it really badly, my family depends on it, its tough, your choice, your'e up against some stiff competion.

FF

whatever you decide, best of luck it's fun:ok:

can take around 10 years before to sit in an airline aircraft with a basic salary.
minimum requirement to apply are 1500h, 200 multi and some jet ot turbine.

Try 2500h 1000 jet and boeing or airbus rating with 500h on type!!!!!

Times have changed.

Three of my mates got jobs this year:

Mate One: ATR 72. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.

Mate Two: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.

Mate Three: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.

No hope?

Attitude goes a long way I say.

VFE.

Everyone knows a few exceptions to any rule.

More importantly, how many do you know without jobs ???

VFE we do not believe you, I know 20-30 pilots with less 500h, no one have found a job since the 9/11.

Speak for yourself Hulk. Based on the number of postings, i know who i'd have more belief in.

People can debate till their hearts content. I think its simple. You either want it or you don't. I do. I'm desperate for it. I'm giving up the City Accountant life, as i KNOW the grass is greener on the other side. I may become poorer, I may have to spend time away from home, however, if i enjoy professional/commercial flying as much as i do training in a !!!!ty Cessna/Piper, then i KNOW that the remaining 41 years of my working life will be a lot more happier than the last 4 years in the Rat Race.

If you want it badly enough you will make it work and eventually it will pay off. Yes there are people who will put you off but ultimately yes, we are all Wannabes/experienced pilots but we're all different people.

NC,

right, but I do know one guy who has been hired with 250h on an Airbus...even guys with 3000h do not find jobs actually.the last guy I have met who have been hired by a brit company had 1500h (pre 9/11).

Hulk

your experience of the job market is obviously limited. There have been a large number of jobs filled since 9/11 and some layoffs too. There has also been a number of guys hired with 250hrs or less and some from an FI background. Granted not as many as just prior to 9/11, but in no way as bleak as you make out.

It's always been tough and it is tougher right now, but let's keep some balance in this debate. Talk facts not speculation. Just because you don't know anyone who has been hired doesn't mean that someone who knows three is a liar................

PP

Hulk - You're a wind up merchant !!
 

Yes, I'm talking about you HULK !!

I don't normally waste my time responding to the likes of people like you ...... and I feel sure that many others have twigged that you only appear to be posting to be confrontational or whatever kick it is you seem to be getting out of it all !! I notice that you've had many postings on different forums recently, for instance you've recently posted something on Wannabees about whether Mod 1 or 2 of Bristol GS is the harder etc and how you feel most of it is easy on Mod 1 ...... well, I've not even bothered looking at your profile, giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming that the posting is genuine, then you're obvioulsy looking at obtaining an JAA ATPL/fATPL. That said, then your posting to "Is it all worth it?" is so negative for someone who should be thinking so positively at this time ..... "can take around 10 years before to sit in an airline aircraft with a basic salary.
minimum requirement to apply are 1500h, 200 multi and some jet ot turbine." ......... and "VFE we do not believe you, I know 20-30 pilots with less 500h, no one have found a job since the 9/11." .....

HULK, I'd say, why don't you pack it all in now and do us all a favour, but as I've said, it's obvioulsy a wind up !! Feel free to shoot me down in flames hulk, but I won't be responding, I've already wasted enough valuable time posting this trash !! You are the weakest link - goodbye !!

VFE ....... "Attitude goes a long way I say." .... well said !! :ok:

Ladies and Gents ..... the Goose has spoken :ooh:

A few random thoughts to add to the pot:

1) If you don't try, you'll always regret not trying.

2) If you don't want it enough, you'll loose out to those who do.

3) Getting an airline job with low hours is nearly, but not quite, impossible - but see number 2 above.

4) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a job flying anything bigger than a Cessna Caravan. In fact, I'd probably prefer to fly smaller stuff if only I could afford to live on the salary for any length of time, but maybe that's just me.

5) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a flying job at all. With the exception of the ATPL exams, I've enjoyed all of my training so far, and I expect I'll enjoy the rest of it too. Besides which, see 1 above.

FFF
--------------

Couldn´t agree more FlyingForFun,

Really enjoying the training here in Jerez, especially this IR stuff which I just started a couple of weeks ago. Luckily the ATPL exams are behind me :D

Hulk must have the misfortune to know the least lucky low hours guys around. Out of Jerez I could name about 25% of the grads of the last 6 months who are now flying (or about to: busy type rating) jets or turbo props. Sure its a !!!!e percentage but it´s not zero. Others are busting their ass looking, getting a few hours instructing, spending time in jet sims to keep current, one I know of is meat-bombing (aka parachute drops - why do people want to jump out of a/c??!!)

I think the best post on this well beaten subject was posted by Pilot Pete a few months back. I will see can I find it and link it here.

Pete......If you have a link, post it again. It displayed the rough with the even rougher road to the LHS. If you could do what PP did, then you will make it.....in fact you would probably make it into NASA!!!! It was an inspirational read.
Ncusack:ok:

Found it:


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911


It'll take a while but it's a cracker!

Ncusack

Hulk,

Ask yourself: what does VFE have to gain from lying? Silly boy...... :rolleyes:

VFE. http://www2.bitstream.net/~nakroach/.../faintthud.gif

VFE,

In view of the fact that all your mates seem to get flying jobs with relatively low hours, I was wondering if I could be one of your friends, mate:ok:

On a slightly different tack, I think job fulfillment is all relative, if you have experienced nothing else all your life then the grass is always going to look greener elsewhere.

If your a commercial pilot slagging off your own occupation, thats fair enough but you're never going to convince a Wannabe that the lifestyle sucks and the pays no good. And what are you comparing it too a lawyer? a doctor? The're not really in the same ball park are they? How about a policeman, teacher, traffic warden or bus driver is this more fulfilling.

I've worked for the same engineering company for over 2O years I get a reasonable salary, 6 weeks of annual leave, flexi time, foreign travel staying in nice hotels, a guaranteed pension, retirement at 60, I finish work at 5 every day and I'm home by 10 past. Whats more when I travel I continue to earn the same hourly rate. Does this sound good to you. Because I hate it, whats more I hate myself for not trying to pursue a flying career a long time ago.

have a nice day!



:yuk: MJR

Admitedly I do know about twenty low hours guys and gals looking for jobs. :ok:

VFE.

I strongly believe that anyone doing an ATPL or wanting to do one should go into it with their eyes fully open.

After 10-15 years in the industry it is highly likely that it is going to be just another job. Relationships and friendships are bound to suffer, you have to work odd hours, weekends (so that party/that drink may have to be put off ETC).

Needless to say I still wanna do it, I know it is going to be one hell of a struggle and finally I am saving now (after paying off student debts). I personally can't stand my job, I sit there 9-5:30 bored senseless, I hate the routine and I hate office life. I was happier working shifts in my last position even if it wasn't paid as well. There is nothing else I want to do, so I have to go for it. I don't have a partner (just split up with my girlfriend but she knew about my desire to fly for a living and was fully aware that it was likely that we wouldn't have survived once I started training). Sept 11th was a nightmare for most industries. I still know friends from Uni that haven't got full time jobs and we graduated 2 years ago. I know of one who got onto Barclay's grad scheme, starting salary was high and was made redundant 6 months later and now can't get another job. His dream of working in Banking is in tatters as well. Wages have been kept lower by the economic climate, we recently advertised for a position and had over 500 applicants many with over 10 years experience and the money was fairly low!, it is tough out there everywhere.

Unfortunately the airline industry has a massive barrier to entry in obtaining the license. Other careers do as well to some degree, but it genuinely doesn't peek over 10k. One of the major problems is that financial institutions IMO, don't fully understand the requirements of wannabe pilots, you can walk into most banks and get financial advise about law courses, accountancy training but it seems that it isn't always stretched for pilots.

The governments attitude with VAT on flight training is also disgusting, how they can't call an ATPL course vocational I will never know, but lots of things needs to be changed or there could be a major shortage in years to come.

Out of interest my father is a Dr, ex surgeon and the only advice he has ever given me is to never go into the medical profession and then rants about how it has changed, the NHS etc, and how he should have done law, accountancy instead. Not everyone is currently happy with their lot, the grass always seems greener on the other side. But I do understand the points of those that have been in the industry for 15 years plus, many sacrifices have probably been made over the years, and they just aren't as happy as they once were.

Best of luck everyone

Sagey

IS IT ALL WORTH IT ?

Well, I'd have to say no, not for me, anyway. I did my training in the States, did a little instruction over there and then returned to the UK to convert to a BCPL and then did a BCPL to CPL upgrade course. I then spent about 2 years looking for my 1st job, while doing any job going to keep a roof over my head and pay off my debts. When I found my first flying job as a First Officer I was obviously delighted. The 1st six months I spent working just at the weekends (unpaid) and after six months I was then offered a permanent position. Having spent £25,000 on training and worked very hard to pass all my exams and holding a professional qualification (CPL/IR Frozen ATPL) I expected to earn a salary, however, I had yet to learn that in the perculiar world of aviation, normal rules do not apply. I was to be employed by this company, however I was not going to be paid for the first year ! I know many of you would probably jump at a chance like this, and I know that many people at this airline did work unpaid, however this was something that I could not afford or was prepared to do.

Fortunatley, at around the same time I was offered a job in London with an Investment Mngt company, where I have been for 5 years now. For my first year working for this company I continued to apply for other flying jobs but could find nothing. It was around this this that I decided to give up flying and pursue a career in the City and I have no regrets. I now have a great job, earn a good salary and have managed to buy a flat in London. If I'd stayed in Flying, God knows where I would be now ? Yes, I work 9 to 5, but this means I get up at a reasonable hour and get home every night. I also have every weekend and Bank Holiday free to do as I wish. And yes I spend most of the day sitting at a desk with a computer screen infront of me, speaking on the phone, but the work is varied, I learn something new everyday and it lets me be somewhat creative. As opposed to flying a modern aircraft where I would be monitoring a computer flight system, making the occasional radio call and doing everything by the book. I am also promoted by virtue of how well I do my job and not merely by seniority.

I really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle. Perhaps if you have a job you really hate, but there are many more interesting and rewarding careers out there than being a pilot. I guess you just have to be really crazy about flying, something which I guess I was not. I did ofcourse enjoy the training tremendously and I still fly for pleasure at the weekends which is all I need in terms of my aviation fix.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think flying is a bad career to have, it just wasn't for me. Just make sure that it is really what you want to. £50,000 or whatever it costs now is a hell of alot of money to spend with no guarantee of a job at the end. If you really love flying why not think about buying a share in an aircraft and fly at the weekends. Or fly off to the States for a 2 week flying holiday every year, you'd get alot of holidays for £50 G. You'll probably do more hands on flying than you ever would during a career as a pilot.

Good luck, whatever you do . If you already fallen in love with flying, then none of my negative comments will have any effect on you, I'm just trying to give another point of view, rather than the go for it at all costs, live your dreams, what if, etc...

:ok:

Don't know of many airlines that operate like that. Care to enlighten us?

Well that was during a reasonably good time for airline recruitment so you must have been doing something wrong.

No airline promotes merely on seniority. If you are not deemed suitable when your number comes up you don't get it.

If you can't understand it then you made a strange decision by trying to enter it.

And, we didn't ALL sacrifice marriages, families and homes to pursue this career. My personal career path lead to me getting married, having three kids, being put through the wringer after 9/11 and emerging the other side a better, more rounded, happier individual who has moved up the property ladder and loves going to work. Oh, my social life is just fine too thanks.

We are not robots and can switch the autopilot off and hand fly if we want. Those of us who love flying do this quite regularly, even from 39,000' all the way to touchdown. Much more fun than from 3000' in a Cessna.

I really can't quite see where investment management allows your creative side to flourish, now let me see, visual approach with all the automatics off into Corfu, now that allows me lots of scope for practicing my skills and gives me the buzz that I require. As for creativity I plant pretty looking flowers in my front garden and nurture them until they bloom into a magnificent display. I fly by the book because it's the safest way. I can't see how you would investment manage against 'the book' as not too many people would be happy with the way their investments were being managed.....................

So it does draw the conclusion that spending £25,000 on commercial flight training was perhaps not the best managed investment you ever made.

Couldn't agree more. It takes a certain dedication and desire to do this job. The rewards are however relative to how much you want to do it. I don't think I get a vast amount of money for the job I do and the responsibilty I take, but I love the work, don't mind the hours (and I've worked every weekend this month), had more days off in the week than you have had at weekends and have just enjoyed a great dinner party with a number of like minded friends, oh, and I'm going out to get pished tomorrow night too and then get the pleasure of hand flying 24hrs later. Bliss. Oh, did I forget to mention I have Mon-Fri off next week to recover in preparation for my next three days flying. Now what shall I plan next week.............? Three days with the family and two with the lads I think!

Don't get me wrong, it's not for everyone and there are times on the way back from somewhere like Luxor that you really think you would rather be somewhere else, but on the whole I had that feeling a heck of a lot more of the time in my previous career.

FranticFlyer, I'm sorry but your account smacks of sour grapes.

PP

The word desperate is the key. If that's how you feel, you have to try but don't destroy yourself in the process - there's no rush with the market the way it is right now. Can you keep working part-time and do the training part time? Be strict with yourself, maybe OATS does have some advantages (often debated), but don't pay the industry's premium prices with 100% borrowed money - that's crazy. (Having said that, I think their full time ground school is the business, I'd go there just for the ground school bit).

I love flying (just fATPL right now) but I absolutely would not get that far into debt to do it. I'd set myself a very strict rule not to borrow more than 50% of the money needed to pay for training - say 25k (that's still a decent deposit on a house in most parts of the country). So what if it takes a little longer.

I'd also try (and I mean really hard) to get into the CTC McAlpine - ab-initio training scheme as there's a job already waiting at the end of it.

Good luck, let us know what you decide! :ok:


p.s. Frantic Flyer - I used to work in the City and then on Wall St myself (Goldman Sachs). What's all that about 9-5? Is that one of those part-time paternity benefit positions I've heard about??? ;)

FranticFlyer,

Interesting viewpoint - different to my own, which is closer to Pilot Pete's, but interesting nonetheless.

But I'm curious. Why does someone who gave up any thoughts of commercial flying 4 years ago suddenly register on a forum for professional pilots, and make his first post in none other than the Wannabes forum?

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that you're not welcome or anything like that, because you are. It just seems strange that someone in your position would be interested in the Wannabes forum at all. I'd expect you to spend more time in Private Flying. :confused:

FFF
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FranticFlyer - if you post is true, then you didn't want it enough.

And to all the current pilots who're moaning about their jobs earlier in the thread, why don't you do something else? Then there'd be more jobs for the rest of us.

And on a general point - it's the things you don't do that you regret when you get old.