Foreign IR Holders
 

PLEASE NOTE! a CAA policy change on 30 Jan 01 now requires all foreign (ICAO) PPL or CPL holders with an IR rating on their foreign licence to complete a FULL approved training cpourse for a JAA IR. See: www.srg.caa.co.uk. This means gaining a foreign (e.g. US, Australian, NZ, South African, Canadian) IR will no longer exempt you from completing a FULL JAA IR course - this, therefore, negates the value of such a foreign rating. Only exemption is for foreign ATPL holders with over 500 hours on type of aircraft used for JAR-FCL Skill Test.

Clive,

there's a thread on this a bit further down. You may be interested in Alex Whittingham's comments if you are converting...

Cheers, H&H

H&H

Assuming that he is "the" Clive Hughes, he has absolutely no need whatsoever to convert anything.

Sir,

Your book was, and probably still is, splendid and inspired me to get off my backside. Many thanks.

HP

Do you think they'll do the same for the CPL as well?

Hi Clive,
what are the aircraft used for jar-fcl skill test? (about atp holder with 500h)
Thanks

The 'JAR-FCL Skill Test' Referred to is, in fact, the ATPL Skill Test which must be taken on an aircraft certified for multi-crew operation. An ATPL with hours only on light singles/twins doesn't count.

So, get yourself a type rating on a B737/A320/etc. or do the full JAA IR course. Chances are this will be extended to the CPL, and all other courses as the JAA become even more protectionist.

Does this mean that the cost of getting IR'd for UK students will be going up??

Ham Phisted - Well, I am the author of the book so if that's what you are refering to thanks for the compliment.Best of luck with your aviation aspirations.

Day Dreamer- At present it seems that exemptions from the FULL JAA CPL course will still be given to foreign ICAO CPL holders. I hope to get a definitive answer on this and its continuation from the man in charge of JAA implementation when he comes back from holiday next week.

Roadtrip - Not necessarily but the cost is always dependent upon demand so opportunist schools may take advantage of any increased demand.

Rolling Circle - thanks for the expanded explanation which I omitted.

Sir, I am not familiar with you or your work but you seem to know what you are talking about. What will it cost someone to do this? This seems absolutely silly. IFR is IFR, and someone with real world IFR experience should not have to "RE DO" there IR. I am not super experienced, but have over 1000 hours in a 2 crew, multi turbine, IFR environment. I assume half the guys doing the teaching would have less experience. This seems very ironic.This issue may close the door on myself coming to Europe to work. Any way around this? Any other comments? Will they change there ways when they see how wrong this is? I have no problem with exams and flight tests. But burning expensive gas for no reason????? I am Canadian by the way. Cheers.

BE20

Top tip: buy his book. He doesn't work for free! And it is worth the money. ;)

HP

BE20 - If at least 500 hours of your multi-pilot time is in an aircraft certificated under FAR 25 or FAR 23 and you meet the remaining requirements of JAR-FCL 1.280, you can by-pass the requirement for the IR Skill Test by gong straight for ATPL issue.

However, and there's always a however, you will still have to pass all of the theoretical knowledge examinations and the ATPL Skill Test. There is no mandatory ammount of training required for the ATPL Skill Test, provided that you have a current type rating and at least 500 hours logged on the type to be used for the skill test. If you do not have that type experience you will have to complete an approved type rating course.

The problem is that the aircraft used for the Skill Test must be a type certificated for a minimum crew of two pilots under IFR, as listed in AMC-FCL 1.220, part B, which does not include the BE20.

If you do not meet the requirements for the issue of a JAR ATPL then you will have to complete the full IR course, less the allowance for an ICAO CPL holder, totalling 45 hours for a single-engine IR or 50 hours for a multi-engine IR, and pass the IR Skill Test.

Conversion of Foreign IR ratings
 

Been reading the threads re. the JAA's decision that pilots with foreign IRs will have to completely redo their ratings in a JAA state. What a complete load of BS.

I find it completely ludicrous that the JAA have decreed that although I hold a foreign IR, they consider my skills to be on a level with a pilot with no instrument training at all. When is the JAA going to stop moving the goalposts so that we can begin to plan our careers further ahead than the next ridiculous JAA decision?

I completed my IR training in South Africa and a lot of people consider the training out there to be among the best in the world -certainly more comprehensive from an academic point of view than the States.

What is next? Are doctors, lawyers, IT experts and other proffessionals going to be required to redo their qualifications from scratch before they will be allowed to work in Europe?

As for the JAA's stand that the weather conditions in Europe are different from the rest of the world: What a load of poppycock. If you can fly with sole reference to instruments, or conduct a profficient ILS approach you have attained these skills whether they have been gained in Africa, Europe or Australia. Of course they are differences, but that is the purpose of conversion training. Besides, everyone has to pass the same flight test so any shortcomings will be picked up at that stage.

In fact I believe that the conditions in many other parts of the world present greater challenges to Instrument Rated Pilots.

IMC approaches in Africa for one are often associated with severe turbulence and pilots out there are regularly confronted with Cb's unlike anything seen in Europe with associated hail, turbulence, lightning, freezing rain etc.

Besides, are the JAA about to stop IR training in Spain due to the fact that the weather conditions don't accurately reflect the conditions experienced in the rest of Europe. Pilots that have trained in places such as Western Canada or New Zealand have been exposed to weather every bit as muggy as that found in Europe.

I truly believe that if something isn't broke don't fix it. There is no evidence that pilots that have trained for their IRs overseas and then converted them to European ratings are any less safe than their counterparts who have completed their training in Europe. So what has changed?

It is about time the JAA admitted to the fact that a lot of the legislation being passed is simply thinly veiled protectionism aimed at protecting an uncompetitive industry.

Out of interest, does anyone know if the CAA will still issue an IMC rating on the basis of a foreign IR. From what I have been told this used to be pretty much a formality. It used to be the fact that if you held an IMC rating you were given credit on the training required for a full IR. Anyone know if this is still the case??


[This message has been edited by flyingwigwam (edited 21 February 2001).]

Amen.

I had a rant about this a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure you & I won't be the last.

Maybe we should collectively be looking at ways of petitioning the JAA to change their policy on this. A huge job, but the only way to tackle it in my view or nothing will change.

Also, FlyingWW - do you have any credits at all under the old UK licensing system? It might not be all bad news if you have. Email me for details if you like.

Cheers, H&H

If u hold a CAA IMC rating u will be entitled to a reduction from 55hrs to 43hrs training for the ir.This rating will have to be attached to your CAA License,and must be completed by the end of June 2002,u can then pay 128 pounds and have it transfered to your JAR/CPL,WHICH IS APPLICABLE TO MY CASE.

I am up the same creek ( Australian IR ).
Strange feeling to be passionate about something, but disgusted at the same time.
Strange industry.

El Colonel,

why don't you arrange for some banditos to cut down the phone lines to the JAA, and then raid them with your federales shooting their pistolas?

Ole!

If foreign IRs count for nothing, why are holders of these certificates allowed to fly in JAA States ie land at Heathrow? I haven't heard that the yanks have had any difficulty with our weather mind! :) :)

robione,

the IMC credit is only for UK licence holders. If you have a JAA licence you have to do the full JAA course because the CAA cannot give you a credit against JAA requirements only UK ones. I suppose the plan is to add it to the PPL!

[This message has been edited by Noggin (edited 22 February 2001).]

According to the FCL Policy Update a JAR CPL Holder with a CAA IMC Rating is eligible to a 5hr reduction of the JAR IR Course. (as opposed to the 12 hr reduction on the CAA IR)

emu - the 5 hour dispensation is for ICAO CPL holders, nothing to do with whether the person also has an IMC rating.