I’m mid-forties, and left behind a safe but boring office-based career in my mid thirties.

First flying job was aged 36, flying TPs with a UK regional that sounds suspiciously similar to Desk-pilot’s . . . ;) Five years there; salary, career prospects and job security not the best, but wonderful experience – fun flying from small bases with great people. It was a working holiday.

I then spent a couple of years in the Middle East, flying mostly at night to some godawful, horrible, scary places. Great money, great experience (with hindsight – it didn’t feel like it at the time) but p!ss-poor quality of life. I couldn’t wait to escape.

Now with a very big UK airline – that sounds suspiciously similar to Desk-Pilots’s . . . ;) Except that I was fortunate enough to join on a longhaul fleet rather than the minibus. Money is somewhere between the other two, but with much better quality of life, career prospects and job security. For sure I’ve been lucky with timing, but you take your breaks and - to an extent – make your own luck.

And after nearly a decade of airline flying, it still feels like I’m being paid to do my hobby. I can’t think of many jobs like that.

Trying to make a plan
 

Hello everyone!

As you can see by my name, I currently work as a Registered Nurse for one of the University Hospitals in the UK. Due to the current pressures being applied to the healthcare sector, I am considering a career in one of my childhood dreams even at the "late" age of 35. However, I have zero clues where to start! I'm spending my free time reading and researching, but most of it is confusing and I fear I don't appreciate a few things that I come across.

I am starting this thread just to try an un-clog my brain and if anyone could be kind enough to throw some guidance and advice my way, I would be very grateful!

I'm guessing this issue has been done to death, but I, too, am having issues with financing. While I am currently a British Citizen and living in the UK with my wife and two sons, the rest of our families are back "home" in the Philippines and thus, most of the financing options (secured against property in the UK) are unavailable to me. I'll have to find another way to raise the funds for this new "adventure."

Speaking of "adventure," I am planning to do this the Integrated way for two reasons - time and appearance. I've heard/read that airlines prefer Integrated as opposed to Modular so I'd like to stack that in my favor. I'm also currently employed full-time and I believe I can take an 18-24 month sabbatical and return to my current job while waiting for an airline offer; I'd rather do this than stretch out the training over several years. I don't mind job-hunting for a year or two as I continue working in the healthcare sector; I don't want to be juggling work and study for a year or two. With my current job, I can afford a reasonable loan on a 12-15 year payment term if I do end up with a CPL/fATPL but no airline job.

My next hurdle is the training itself. UK and EASA or USA and FAA? I don't understand either EASA or FAA enough to appreciate the difference. However, I am under the impression that US-based training is cheaper than UK-based schools and even UK-based schools go to the USA or NZ to do flight hours there, so maybe cut out the middleman and just train in the US then convert FAA to EASA license? I'll need to find out how that costs in the USA compared to UK schools, but most pages I come across are filled with so much jargon and abbreviations that I don't understand half of what I'm reading! Work-wise, I expect to be looking at either Europe, Middle East, or Asia/SE Asia for employment as I believe the US/Canada market is saturated with pilots and poor pay.

Currently, I'm looking at 2Fly Pro-Pilot as their training is around £70K as opposed to the £100+K for CTC and CAE Oxford, but like I said, I'm brand new to this so I'm still looking around for other schools to weigh my options. One of the flight schools in Florida that offer EASA training (Naples Air Center) estimates around US$45-50K, which is around half of 2Fly's £70K/US$92K, but 2Fly includes accomodations so I'm not entire sure how everything weighs in... for example, Naples Air Center flies out of Naples Municipal Airport which is tower-controlled while 2Fly flies out of Merritt Island airport which isn't tower-controlled.... but they also have an office in Fort Lauderdale and the Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport is tower-controlled.

Speaking of schools, my next issue is how to determine whether a school is legit and whether their training is any good. I guess people can't say anything bad about CTC and CAE Oxford aside from the sky-high fees, but for the smaller, cheaper schools, I read about "shady" establishments all the time. In fact, one of my local flight schools (PPL only) is/was owned by a rather interesting character and I found out about his history here on PPRuNe! This is also one of the reasons I don't want to go too cheap --- "if it's too good to be true..." Another factor that I'm aware of, but I'm not very sure about the value, is how "connected" these schools are with the airline companies. CTC, Oxford, and 2Fly advertise their connections to airlines but a local flight school that offers CPL does not.

Whew! Feels good to be able to get this in writing so that I can review this and don't have to store it all in my head and maybe forget important aspects later on.

Thank you very much for reading this and like I said earlier, any snippets of wisdom or advice would be greatly appreciated! I will continue updating this thread as my adventure progresses.

From reading your post, Im guessing you are originally a Filipino who has immigrated to the UK to work as a nurse. If so, I understand why you probably ended up becoming a nurse, as my lady is also a filipino nurse moving to the UK to work. I would suggest that you list the reasons why becoming a pilot is your dream, and then assess if they are really good enough reasons to put yourself through the long and risky process of becoming a pilot!

Have you ever thought of training back ph, its a lot cheaper and you might be able to get your first gig in PAL, Cebu Pacific, air asia etc. It maybe worthwhile checking this out?

Completely wrong I'm afraid. Maybe 5 or 6 years ago you could have argued that integrated was the best option, but not now. There are a lot more viable alternatives available out there for modular trained pilots. Look into, FTE Jerez and L3s modular route, the Wings Alliance, Kura aviation and even Ryanair's APC through CAE aviation. Also, speak to modular pilots who have got jobs, don't believe all the glossy PR nonsense from the big schools!

The career breaks available in the NHS are fantastic, I suggest you take full advantage of it. perhaps you could get your PPL and hour building done in your spare time and when you are ready to do the ATPLs and CPL/MEIR you could take your career break. It would allow you the necessary time to focus on your training plus you can always return to nursing when your done. It would also give you the peace of mind that you have a job to return to in order to service any loans payments you might have as a result of your training.

If you want to work for a European airline you will absolutely need an EASA fATPL licence. You can train in the USA and then convert to EASA at a later stage. I'm not an expert on how to do this, but there are plenty of people and threads on this forum who can explain the process.

I would also add, there are benefits to training at the big schools like FTE or CTC, but there is increasingly a lot more modular outfits who can offer the same benefits. Where, when and how much money you want to spend on your training will be down to you. All I can suggest is to do lots and lots of research and take your time before making any decisions.

Also, get your class 1 medical booked, I'm sure as a nurse you will know if your healthy, but you can't fly professionally as a pilot without a class 1.

I wonder why my post has been added/moved to this thread as it had very little to do with "am I too old"... I simply mentioned my age but I had much more than just "am I too old?" in my post... who can I contact about returning this to it's own thread?


That is correct!


Lots of reasons... but here's one that exactly happened to me... I was able to come to the UK because I was in the right place at the right time with the right qualifications. I never wanted to be a nurse when I was younger; I took up Nursing because it was "in demand" at the time I took the course but by the time I finished it (it's a 4-year course), the USA had introduced visa retrogression almost a year prior which resulted in a lot of nurses with licenses and employers in the USA still stuck in the Philippines as the US Embassy would only issue a limited amount of visas per year. There were nurses who finished their courses 2-4 years prior to me, worked alongside me for 2 years, and were still stuck in the Philippines while I moved on to work in the UK. A few of them remained in the Philippines for another 4-6 years after that! So I am very much aware of the idea that hiring practices may change... but if I did not take the risk and study nursing, if I did not apply for a job as a nurse (I almost went for a call center agent job because it paid 20-40% better!), then it would not matter what opportunities arrived as I was not qualified to get it. A comfy call center agent job may be making good money in the Philippine economy, but that is nothing compared to what a "poor" RN is making in the UK today. "You have to be in it to win it," I think is the best phrase.

I would not want to be a pilot if the money is worse than what I'm making now... "childhood dreams" have no place if I cannot fulfill my responsibilities as a father/husband/provider. A "poor pilot" at £30K year is at the start of his career (at least that's what my research shows as a starting FO might make). The basic pay of a "top" Band 5 nurse is £28K, that's after at least 5 years of working as an RN.... whereas the pilot is only at the start of his career. This is one of the reasons I went looking for other jobs in the first place... then thought about "what if I were to make my childhood dream a reality **AND** get a good wage as well?"


Simply, THIS! It may be cheap, but like I said, sometimes, if it's too good to be true... my driving test many years ago consisted of me driving my instructor to a party he needed to go to, he then signed my form, then sent me back to the office where I turned in the form and got my official driver's license!

I don't want to be stacking the deck AGAINST me any further than it already is :)


That is good to know, thanks! However, my initial point still remains... I cannot afford to drag this out. I've spoken with my manager today and the most I can get is 12 months sabbatical leave... I would rather get training done fast and be looking for jobs earlier rather than stretch out the training and miss out on opportunities for employment along the way. At the most, I could probably do a small part of the training (4-6 month PPL or hour building if following the 2Fly programme or ATPL exams if following other integrated programmes ), go back to work for a few months, then go back on a longer sabbatical to finish off the training and requirements.


Apparently not as good as I thought! I wonder if that's just for my department though... I'll need to dig into this a bit more as I wouldn't put it past my manager to lie to squeeze me.


That's exactly the issue. I'm not married into the idea of flying just in Europe. I am in the UK because it's where the job is... my only reason for not going to the Middle Eastern countries was because I knew nurses could work there for 20-30 years but would still have to go home after this time... at least in the UK, we were able to apply for citizenship which opens a lot more doors for me and my family. With that done, I've no qualms of flying for the Middle Eastern countries or even going back to Asia/SE Asia and working there. The obvious advantage of being able to land a job with a European airline is that I may not have to uproot my family in the process, but I think that's about it.


Thank you for the advice! What I wonder specifically is how much weight should I give to schools that advertise ties to airline companies vs. schools who just offer courses. For example, 2Fly, CTC, and CAE Oxford all advertise their placement programmes, whereas my local flight school also offers CPL(A), Multi Engine Pistion, IR, Ab Inition ATPL, Night rating, FI, and other courses as well, but no mention of airline connections.


This is very true and is in fact my first stop in this adventure. It will not matter if I am the hottest airline pilot ever born if I can't get a Class 1 Medical. I have a few issues -- contact lenses, gallstones (non symptomatic), asthma (well controlled), and a good belly (comfort eating after a long and stressful shift) -- but from what I've read, they should not be an obstacle, but I never know until I have gone for a medical examination.

Utter nonsense you say about Modular vs Integrated training.

If you want first job with a UK company, the only way is integrated, with exception of Ryanair, most other companies have agreement with CTC/Oxford.

Besides Ryanair, I do not know of any airlines within UK that will give you a job with modular training program, unless you are lucky to be included into some of the CTC programs available.

I know of several former modular students who have got first time airline jobs (excluding Ryanair) & not been on any formal CTC/Oxford scheme. Some of them have been the wrong side of 30 too.

I was modular myself, and I know loads of modular guys, many getting jobs, but mostly they had to go abroad or Ryanair.

There are modular pilot's who have come trough Oxford / CTC, but the training there is quite expensive even if modular.
And if you are modular you always second priority, it's only when they can't place all the integrated students that they turn to the modular students.

These schools have deals in place with most the major UK airlines, and will obviously get priority.
I am not a big supporter of this system, but it's the way it is, either you like it or not.

Flybe, BACF, Stobart Air, Eastern, DHL, Thomas Cook, Monarch, Easyjet(only via CTC/L3 admittedly), Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Cityjet, Air Tanker, Jet2; have I forgotten any; have and still do - recruit modular cadets. Titan has just closed a scheme very recently that was exclusively for modular trained pilots.

IMVHO, :}, I think airlines are catching on to the fact that starry eyed, 20 year old, middle class kids from the sausage factories; do not always make the best first officer and sometimes turn into jaded captains that spend their spare time moaning on pprune about their lot in life. I also spoke to a TOM skipper lately, whilst I was on a course, who expressed the opinion that airlines realise that budding managers don't make great pilots and are adjusting their recruitment strategies as a result - a swipe at these mentored cadet schemes.

A major question that bears asking is that Ryanair (who are the largest recruiter of cadets in europe) have kept their recruitment, selection and Type Rating in house (yes CAE does the TR). They have not outsourced it to CTC or any of the others. Since, and therefore, the management culture in Ryanair detests cronyism, I can't help but wonder that they thought the whole relationship between airlines and certain ATOs stinks of the boys club and back scratching. However this is another conversation and I digress no further, but maybe it gives some context.

As a former modular pilot, you know it has been difficult in the past for modular guys to get into employment, times are changing thankfully. I don't think its helpful to do the biding of the 'big 3' and continue to spread their spin that integrated is the only way forward.

Putting on my rose tinted glasses now. With a bit of luck, the grip and greed of the big schools might just be broken in the next decade if the new initiatives popping up to help modular pilots succeed.

Anyway, I think integrated vs modular has been done so much that it is almost turning into a religious debate.

Nurse2Pilot - keep up the research, the only thing I can stress is to not rush anything! Go forward with your eyes wide open, there is no such thing as the ideal time train. You face a lot more risks in pursuing a career as a pilot other than just not being able to find a job. The thread you shared about training in the Philippines is any eye opener, but not surprising.

Thanks MaverickPrime! I'm doing as much reading as I can but most of it is still confusing....

There are so many schools but only a handful seems to have sterling reputation. Most seems to be either shady or re-branding of shady schools... if not the school itself, then their affiliate schools in USA or Europe.

There are different opinions regarding Integrated vs. Modular... but at least this is easy for me if I want to keep my Nursing job after training.

What do you mean by this? I'm getting a feeling you're talking about more than just the initial debt for training...

BusAirDriver

Wrong. Completely wrong.

I'd recommend a bit more research then. Flybe gave me my first job, and I distinctly remember doing modular training. As did many of my colleagues.

Integrated might be the only low-hours route into BA, but as an experienced direct entry pilot, they couldn't care less how and where you trained. I know because I work for them now. Integrated training may give you an advantage with some airlines, some of the time. It ain't a golden ticket, however. In my direct experience, breaking into this industry is far more dependent on contacts and timing than where or how you trained - or how old you are.

Your never going to get anywhere in this industry without a EASA CPL/IR/ME, ATPL writtens passed or equivalent.
How you get there is entirely up to you.
How far you go, is also entirely up to you.
It's not up to L3, CAE or FTE.
They are a business, in business to make money for the share holders.
Not to make your dreams come true.

Rather than just talking about it.
I suggest you start working on it.
No matter how you start, or who you start with.
It's a long hard road, full of twists and turns and a lot of pot holes along the way.
But like the longest journey it starts with the first step.
It's called a PPL.

Please, please stop talking about Ryanair Vs Easyjet.
Your not ready for 'prime time' yet.
It took me five years from first lesson to first paying job.
And then another five to a major airline.
And I was lucky.

I can't imagine starting later in life.
Especially if your the bread winner with wife and kids and a mortgage.
I've know 'kept men' kicked to the curb for following their flying passion at her expense.
Personally, I don't see how you can make it.
But I'm not stopping you from trying.
Just exercise caution.

If you only make it as far as PPL, then you are still a pilot.

It is interesting how this idea that integrated is the only way has been perpetuated by the larger ATO's selling predominantly, err, integrated courses. I could give you the names of fifty or more colleagues and acquaintances currently flying both larger and small airliners, many in the left seat and several in management and training roles who are all either the product of modular (self-improvers in old money) or ex-military and up through the modular route. It's more about the person than the path in my view.

25 years old from argentina
 

Hi everyone. A little context: I'm 25 from Argentina and about to get a degree in system information.
I would really like to start the pilot career, targeting at commercial airlines. I've already saved to pay for the private pilot license and commercial pilot license. Thing is that I'd like to continue my life and training anywhere else, since job pilots in this country barely exists. (Any type of pilots job).
Is it possible to validate the hours in another country?. USA, Canada, Europe, China, anywhere. Also I've read that the payment for starters is not very good, is this a global situation or only in the us?
I've also read that there is a pilot shortage so that now is a good time to become one.
Finally, the question you always get: is 25 a good age to dream of becoming a pilot? Luckily i dont have a wife or debts or anything pulling me back too much. Any advice will be more than welcomed!. At what age did you start studying for this?

I've heard this "integrated is the only way" mantra spoutted out at flying clubs in the back end of the UK. The glossy PR has been very effective and far reaching in producing and diseminating this narrative!

There are some good modular schools in the UK, which have high standard, and it's not one of the top 2 expensive ones.

At the current climate of the Pound vs US Dollar, I can't see much savings in going to the US at the moment, as you still need to come back and also do the conversion. Maybe 10 years ago, when the exchange rate was 1 : 2 it was better.

If you do well, and you are under 30, I have not heard of anybody not having a chance with RyanAir, I would however be careful with some schools around in Europe, as I have seen pilots come from them, trained with them, and they have not all been trained to the same standard as you see in the UK.

I know of plenty Modular trained guys, who mostly have gone abroad for their first job, come back after 1 - 2- 3 years experience, and gone into very good UK jobs.
I am not disputing that you can't get a UK job as low hour modular, but you will be in the back of a very long queue after the ones who have paid their "golden ticket" £120.000 to CTC / Oxford, the MPL's, the integrated, currently as far as I know BA, easyJet, FlyBe, Monarch, Virgin to mention a few, have all had some cadet scheme agreement the last few years with the big FTO's.

Some FTO's, have become quite powerful with job placement now, and even run their own schemes for modular pilots who want to apply for the major airlines.
Than add the thousands of pilots working abroad, who are looking to get back home to the UK, and you understand it's not easy going the modular route anymore.
If you are older it's even more risky, I recall around 6-7 years ago one week I was to do the CTC ATPQ or something like that screening, which was to put you in a hold pool, and pay £10.000 for a MCC/JOC course, same week I got offered a job with an airline abroad, so of I went to that job. I was not prepared to sit and wait for 1-2 years in a hold pool, and have to pay £10.000 for the course and an additional £35.000 for TR, but I recall some people was very "HAPPY" when they passed this selection.

If you are mid 40's, time counts, time is money, those years commuting was very hard, and knowing what I know now, I am pretty sure many who thing of doing this today at a late age should show caution. It had great financial and family consequences for me, and still today where I am in a good job, I can't confirm if the investment and sacrifices was worth it.
Sure love the job, but life is not just about working.

By age 25 I was already a Boeing 727 first officer. So your a little late to the party, but not too late. If you hurry you'll still make it. But you don't have any time to waste.

The main problem as I see it for you if you do not have legal right to work in either Europe/UK, or the United States. So unless you marry somebody who is a citizen of that country, then I don't know what you'll do.

You want to know if age 25 is a good age to DREAM of becoming a pilot?
No age 10 thru 15 is a good age to dream, from then on you have to start coming up with a plan. I would say age 17 or 18 is the right time to start making it happen.

I'm glad to see that you have money saved and have no commitments. But another problem for you is the exchange rates. The United States Dollar is very over valued, and the British schools are very over priced.

There are basically very few jobs that pay anything for people with just 250 hours. Without the right to even flight instruct in the US. I would think that South American missionary work may be your best opportunity. But don't expect it to pay much if anything.

I'm sorry that there is little commercial aviation in Argentina. But that's what populist socialism gets you. Shared misery.

But I never want to leave a conversation without offering some assistance.
Look into going to Barteloni School in Lodz Poland.
I understand you can get a European Frozen Air Line Pilots License for about Euros 60,000
From there you can try to work in the Middle East or Africa.

Or just stay in Argentina and dream of another job.

My father is from Argentina. Got his commercial license in the early 80s, never had a chance to work in the country (80s, 90s 2000s). He always had to work in another countries. So I don't think "populist socialism" has to do anything with that :).
Anyway, this is not a politics forum (fortunately).

There is a lot of people who gets the license with around 20 years, so those of us who are 25 have to hurry up! But I think it's still a good age!

I would argue 25 is not too late at all. I didn't start until I was 27, and didn't even finish until I was 34 and still made it into the RHS of a jet. Many friends of mine older than me (up to 38) are in the same position.

I agree that the younger you are the better your chances, but 25 shouldn't be an issue in the current climate.

In the 1920s Argentina was the sixth largest economy in the world.
Today, it's so far down the list that it barely even counts.
As proved by your father who wasn't even able to work in his homeland.
He basically became an aviation vagabond.
I'm sorry that it happened that way.
And I do wish that Argentina was a great country that it deserves to be.
But alas it is a mess, both financially and politically.

As for starting young. and 25 being too late.
I never said it was too late.
I said 'a little late to the party'.
But by 25 I was first officer.
At age 27, like when you started, I joined a major airline.
Where I spent four months as second officer, two and a half years as first officer, and captain at age 30.
And I wasn't even the youngest.
Your not going to get that by starting later in life.

But then I knew this is what I wanted to do from age 10.
There simply wasn't an option.
Come hell or high water, this was the life for me.