Ryanw1516 - go and get a Class one medical. Even the healthiest looking people can fail them so that should always be the first thing you do. Then go and get a cheapish PPL. Then come back here and ask for further advice.

This is a great time get into flying - we're on the cusp of massive recruitment. The Yanks are giving pilot visas for the first time ever because they are so short of people. The middle east are expanding again. RIA - the biggest airline you've never heard of is starting in Saudi this year with $30Bn funding - it's going to create a massive vacuum which will leave RYR etc desperate.

Let’s hope and pray for that! If only TR will again be paid by carriers, starting TCs are not abusive anymore and mid-late 30 yo like me are not rejected in some carriers I will be more than happy… maybe this is too much to ask

Best Route: Integrated vs Modular
 

Greetings everyone, just quickly, if you have not had a chance to read my first post, I would kindly urge you to do so. It would provide you with a better understanding of my background, objectives, and the questions I am seeking assistance with. I would like to express my gratitude for the immense assistance received on my initial post. While some members suggested that I may be averse to putting in the necessary effort and waiting for opportunities to materialize, I recognize that my lack of knowledge in comparison to the esteemed community members here has compelled me to seek guidance for commencing my journey and identifying the initial steps. While I understand that sponsorship opportunities are scarce, I have concluded, after careful consideration of all the posts, that the modular approach may be optimal for me given my absence of flight experience, barring occasional passenger travel in my father's plane which he no longer possesses, unfortunately. In my earlier post, I had mentioned my inability to finance flight school, but after conversing with my parents, it appears that funding may not be an insurmountable obstacle, and hence, that avenue remains open for exploration if necessary. I would be grateful for any insights into the feasibility of this option or other potential pathways that might be more advantageous.

I was also curious about the time and cost involved in achieving an ATPL via the modular route (though I acknowledge the answer to this may not be straightforward), as I've heard that this is the objective I should be targeting. Furthermore, I had heard about the existing dearth of pilots in North America, and I was pondering whether pursuing an integrated approach and acquiring a pilot's license in North America could be a viable alternative for me, if I were to obtain a green card.

I apologize for being unable to respond to comments on my previous post due to technical constraints, but I wish to extend my heartfelt appreciation for the invaluable insights and experiences shared by everyone. Your assistance has been of tremendous help, and I remain grateful for your continued support.

You mention three well-trodden routes:
Modular, Integrated and USA.
Integrated is the most expensive by far. Modular in the UK can be done for £45-£50k and gives exactly the same licence. Then there's the US route, which is by far the cheapest - if you know what you are doing. The US route makes the most sense of you commit to it - meaning get FAA certificates and work as a flight instructor to 1500 hours. The advantage of the FAA system is that you only need 100 hours in powered aircraft, which opens the door to a lot of cross crediting and some very very cheap flying.

What does modular training consist of?
 

I understand that first you need to attain your PPL, then you must hour build in order to attain your CPL. There are so many websites that say the order of your modules but they all say different things.

So my question is, what is the order of and what are the modules called that are NECESSARY to become a commercial airline pilot [for BA or easyJet etc].

​​​​​​Thank you

I've been trying to calculate a more recent/relevant cost for going the modular route and I'm finding it will be a lot more expensive than the £50k to £60k that is usually estimated. My training for the PPL and most of the subsequent hour building would be based around London, which I appreciate is not the cheapest place to fly and perhaps I will look to get it done cheaper elsewhere, but is there anything in there that looks wildly wrong?

Training
PPL (45 hours) 12,000
Night Rating (5 hours) 1,300
Hour building (25 hours) 5,000
IRR/IMC (15 hours) 3,750
Hours (35 hours) 7,000
CBIR (15 hours) 8,000
MEP (6 hours) 4,000
MEIR (5 hours) 18,000
Hours (22 hours) 4,400
CPL (SEP) ( 15 hours) 6,000
MCC APS 5,000
JOC 1,000
TOTAL 75,450

Examinations and Tests
PPL Test 200
PPL Exams 450
ATPL Exams 1,000
Austro Exams 1,300 (probably won't go for EASA anyway)
IR Skills 850
ME Skills 150
ME Paper 35
ATPL Theory Course 2,500

CAA License Fees
PPL 202
RT License 79
ME Class Rating 131
IR Rating 131
CPL 263

Misc
Headset 200
Memberships 400
Medical+renewals 1,000
ATPL books 600
PPL Books/Equipment 250

GRAND TOTAL 85,191

So that's looking like it'll be around £85k when all is said and done. It does not include accomodation/travel for exams, longer to get PPL etc either. I can certainly see why some might choose Integrated in this position. Having said that, the ability to work full time alongside still makes modular far more compelling for me.

If you're paying £3,600 per hour for MEIR training you might want to consider something smaller!
Also, you're paying £200 per hour for hour building when you could get it for half that.
And for some reason you want to pay £500 per hour for SEIR training. You're getting screwed and you're pushing back. I can see £25,000 of savings straight away...

Thanks. Well that's encouraging to hear that I probably have some of those costs wrong then. I was taking quotes that I'd seen for those respective packages but hadn't figured that a per-hour rate would probably be better. For the hour-building, I can't find anything that much cheaper in my area though, but I'll hopefully be able to take a chunk off in a package somewhere sunnier.

Hi - please may someone lay out why doing the CBIR is better .e.g. getting your PPL and doing a IMC (IR)?

Look up what you need for an IR course, then look up what you need doing it via CBIR. You'll have your answer.

Where are you based?
The easiest option if you're working full time is a two week package holiday to Florida and fly 50 hours. Do that twice and you've covered your hour building. The IRR is a bit on the high side, you should be able to get it for £3000. The simplest option for CBIR is 40 hours and is essentially the same course but longer, so expect it to cost £8000, but you wouldn't need the IRR in that case. Or you can choose to do the 15 hours IRR then 10 hours by yourself, then finish with another 15 hours instruction to upgrade from IRR to IR. That should be slightly cheaper at £6000 plus the extra 10 hours.
The MEP is 6 hours. The SEIR to MEIR is 5 hours (3 of which can be SIM) so it should cost less than the MEP but budget about the same and you'll be covered.
After PPL and Night (50 hours) your aircraft hire should be:
IRR>CBIR 40 hours, £7500
MEP 6 hours, £3000-3500
MEIR 5 hours, £2500-3000
CPL 15 hours, £4500
Hour Building 84 hours, £8400
Total: 150 hours, £25900-26900. Based on normal UK prices. Plus of course all the incidentals you mentioned like tests, exams, licence and landing fees etc, but still definitely a reasonable figure.

Hey guys!
I've been following this thread for quite some time, very insightful!

A short background : Currently 30 years old working full time in London and planning to switch career as an airline pilot, but due to visa restrictions I'd only be able to join integrated course in 7 months at least ( March 2024 )

I initially thought to do an integrated course just because I want to start my career as a pilot as soon as possible, which if I were to take the integrated course it will probably be the end of 2025, if Im lucky enough to secure a job right after

But then I thought, I could probably start a modular route by doing part time for the next 7 months for PPL, then convert to full-time modular student. Which seems to be about the same time to get the ATPL license and potentially saving quite a lot of money?

I will need to get a loan and help from my family anyways so just weighing out the two options. Thanks in advance!

Following up on my thread above.

I saw this article about a modular student getting into Easyjet and his final stages of modular was done with L3Harris : http://www.pilotcareernews.com/toms-...-with-easyjet/
Also this one saying that the British Airways Whitetail programme will select potential candidates from 5 major ATOs during/after their training ( integrated and modular ) : http://www.*****************/2023/07...lified-pilots/
Basically from what I understood, these airlines tend to 'like' students from these schools anyways?

So after some rough calculations, if I were to do my PPL, ATPL and Hour building with a local, more affordable flight school, then go to the big ones to do the rest of the training. The price difference seems quite small around 10-15k, especially if I want to do dual license.

I guess 10-15k is still quite a lot of money and will take some time to pay back?

Modular is better
 

I think modular is better mate,

Hello everyone. Following on from some of the points above, what would those with experience say is a realistic Modular cost in the UK?

I'm currently looking to start an Integrated in Greece as it's much cheaper than UK Integrated courses. I've phoned a few UK flight schools (Aeros, L3, ACS) and getting a clear answer for even a ballpark figure has been impossible for Modular routes. Each just says, their Integrated course would be better.

I would prefer to do joint CAA and EASA licences but let's even say for the UK licence, any ballpark figures to go zero to fATPL via modular?

Much obliged folks and thanks for taking the time to read.

Does anyone know any info in regards to finishing a UK CAA PPL, and doing the rest of the license modular abroad in Europe?
I enquired at certain flight schools, but they require you to do you're hour building in a UK registered aircraft, and do the EASA ATPL's, then complete the rest of the license off with them.
Can you do hour building at different flights schools? which are not in the UK, e.g. in Florida or somewhere in Europe. Which might workout to be cheaper than UK to do hour building.

In the UK at typical prices about £45,000-£50,000 is achievable if you do everything in the optimal order. It's relatively easy to price it up using any flight schools rate-sheet. To finish your fATPL with the CPL test you need at least 200 hours total (with a minimum of 12 hours multi engine) and 77 hours of dual instruction. Plus the cost of medical, ATPL theory, exams, flight tests and licence and landing fees.

Using £175ph (SEP), £450ph (MEP) and £60(Instructor) as an example:
(188x175)+(12×450)+(77*60) = £42,920.

That's doing it all in the UK at school rates. If you split your hour building into 2 blocks of 2 weeks of 50 hours and do it in Florida at £100 per hour (probably cheaper) then even if you spend £2000 each time on flights and hotels you'll save £3500 which brings the cost of aircraft and instructor below £40,000. Plus you'll get the hours a lot quicker.

Yes you can, its called modular for that reason.

Hey rudestuff,

Currently in a similarish career to airlines, just via a different medium....

I've seen you say that now has never been better than to go for the training. I've seen others say that even taking out a loan to part fund is an option worth considering (sorry I can't remember who).

My day job pays well. However it will take me a year or two to save up the figures quoted for modular. There are a few options I have been thinking about;

1. Take as big a loan as I can get, and save up the remaining difference = less time to fATPL and more chances of employment "quicker" in this market, and thus total career earnings. However more debt and first job could be on regional carrier with low pay and high repayments...

2. Save up everything I need including living expenses and then do it all off my own back = will take 2/3 years to save up properly and may have missed my "chance" in the market. However no debt and if I get first job with regional, I'll not be struggling with repayments. Though final career earnings could be less??

3. A balance of the two options. Save up half and loan the other half = best of both worlds or worst of both worlds?

Any thoughts on the above?

Cheers

Hello everyone!

I am interested in pursuing an EASA ATPL course in Europe. However, being a Russian citizen, I have encountered difficulties finding schools that accept students from my country. Among the options, I am particularly considering FlyBy in Burgos. Could you please provide some insights on the feasibility of completing an integrated course within 14 months, successfully passing all requirements, fulfilling the required flight hours, and avoiding any unnecessary expenses?

So FlyBy said that it is do-able within 14 months (and I met someone who was going to finihs within 14 months when I visted) however most students apparnetly complete it in 16-18 months. So actually it's the advertised EUR75000 + EUR3700 per additional month I believe. For a small school, you may be better off spending the money elsewhere that's better known and with less presure to get it done super quickly. Having said that, it looks like a great price and the staff there were really passionate about the school when I visited.

Do you think you would be accepted in Poland? BartoliniAir have a Lauda-mentored and RyanAir-mentored ATPL for EUR60000 at the moment.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...hool-leon.html

You mentioned career earnings - which means you understand the importance of getting into the industry sooner rather than later. Don't be afraid of unsecured debt (in the UK at least.) The worst that can happen is that you get a black mark against your name. Work out the largest repayments you could comfortably afford and multiply that by the longest loan period to find out hour much you could borrow and save the rest.

I'm confused how you got £42,920 for zero to fATPL, why is instructor £60? Getting a PPL itself needs 45 hours of minimum hours, at stapleford its £210 per hour in a cessna 152. £210*45 for the ppl + landing fees + test fee it would set you back more than £12k, and thats just the PPL.

It's similar for Redhill aviation centre, even with their discounted training they totaled the cost of a PPL to £12k. It's on their website on the prices page.

It's just maths. Maybe follow through with a calculator.

Because you have to pay them, and schools make a lot of their profit on dual instruction. If a school charges £210 for dual and £150 for solo then you're paying (210-150=60) extra to cover the cost of the instructor. [/QUOTE]
A couple of points: Firstly there is usually a solo price and a dual price. It looks like they're charging dual for the whole 45 hours. However it's including VAT so not unreasonable. Secondly 210×45 = 9450 and Stapleford are currently offering 45 hours for £8977.50 total, including landing fees. Certainly not £12k.

Using their numbers for all the SE work and flying a Technam to save a bit more:
PPL first 45 hours £8764. SEP @£143, MEP @£450, instructor @£62:

£8764 + (143hrs x £143) + (12hrs x £450) + (67hrs x £62) = £38,767 - which is even less than my estimated figures.

Add £1000 to upgrade to a complex single for 5 hours for CPL and your total cost for aircraft, instructor and landing fees will be less than £40k (and that's at school prices! You can save a lot more by using TMG, foreign flying, non-equity share, negotiating etc).
The remaining costs will be Medical, flight tests (but not aircraft rental!), ground school, exams and licence issue.

Modular has so many advantages for me personally. Not just financial, but also flexibility and time.

Of course the point isn’t just to get a CPL-ME-IR, it’s to get a job in the RHS at the end of it.

All of the integrated course providers market their “graduate talent pool”, tagging / links with airlines.

Many of them also offer modular training with this same job-seeking support, but they charge significantly more for their modular courses.

My question is… when it comes to finding that first job, is having the support of a big training organisation like this worth paying a premium for?

In my opinion, no. Plenty of people have been screwed by Integrated or MPL courses, and plenty of people have been hired from modular. Timing is everything, and when there are few jobs, the big schools may provide more opportunities. When jobs are plentiful that advantage disappears. The best strategy for getting an airline job is to get hired by an airline in a non-flying job, preferably in the office, then work for them while you're following the modular path. It doesn't guarantee you anything, but it does increase your chances ten-fold, it puts an airline on your CV and if you need a job in the mean time then it won't hurt. Companies love a good zero to hero story for the monthly news letter. I've seen plenty of people do it that way.

A couple of points: Firstly there is usually a solo price and a dual price. It looks like they're charging dual for the whole 45 hours. However it's including VAT so not unreasonable. Secondly 210×45 = 9450 and Stapleford are currently offering 45 hours for £8977.50 total, including landing fees. Certainly not £12k.

Using their numbers for all the SE work and flying a Technam to save a bit more:
PPL first 45 hours £8764. SEP @£143, MEP @£450, instructor @£62:

£8764 + (143hrs x £143) + (12hrs x £450) + (67hrs x £62) = £38,767 - which is even less than my estimated figures.

Add £1000 to upgrade to a complex single for 5 hours for CPL and your total cost for aircraft, instructor and landing fees will be less than £40k (and that's at school prices! You can save a lot more by using TMG, foreign flying, non-equity share, negotiating etc).
The remaining costs will be Medical, flight tests (but not aircraft rental!), ground school, exams and licence issue.[/QUOTE]

RedHill's website says their PPL will cost £12k, Staplefords own website also says it will cost £50-£60k w/o type rating.

Youre missing a lot of information, stapleford has its own brochure with the breakdown of fees from zero to CPL and it is greater than >£50k. Obviously people are going to trust that more than an anonymous forum post on a website. Its their pilot training pricelist in the quick links section.

You don't need to trust an anonymous post, but you should consider it, then do your own research to confirm if it's plausible. The Reason Stapleford is saying higher figures is because they are a money making business. They will not give you the most cost effective option, they will offer the most expensive one the market will bear.

If you research the flight experience requirements for PPL, IMC, IR, CPl, MEP etc you will see that the most optimal order to do things is almost never offered by flight schools: PPL,NR,IMC,IR,MEP,MEIR,CPL.

You can take any flight school fATPL quote and reduce it by 10-20% using their own prices, simply by optimising the modules. To put it in one word - Simulators. They want you use simulators because their profit margin is 80% vs 10% in an airplane.
Simulators don't count as hour building, airplanes do.

It's not that simple any more if you want dual EASA/UK licences. I'm currently guiding a family friend through modular and it genuinely is going to be over £70k after PPL, hour building, night rating, ATPLs (both exam sets), CPL ME/IR (dual licences), UPRT and APS MCC. On top of that they could be looking at £26k Sterling for RYR. These are figures for minimum hours in the UK including equipment and fees etc.
As for PPL costs mentioned above, most are charging dual even for solo flights. £200 per hour in a 152 comes to £9k. Add in exams fees, landing fees, touch and go fees, medical, equipment and you're nearing £11k. You'll then be looking at £150 per hour solo hire in a 152 x 100 is £15k. Add £5k for dual ATPLs. That brings you to £30k for PPL, hour building and ATPL exams. Going rate for dual EASA/UK CPL ME/IR in the UK is currently £30k.
Costs have skyrocketed a lot over the past year. He is getting quoted near £2k for night rating.

Did you read any of what I wrote? Even a dual license should not cost any more than £50k. Plenty of schools offer both courses - the only thing you have to do twice is the exams, the ground school and even the flight tests can be done concurrently. It's all about the order of the modules. I can explain it for you. Unfortunately I can't understand it for you.

Raising Awareness
 

Since you have quite unique advice and beliefs on how you can make modular cheaper than the already optimistic £50k, have you ever thought about making a blog?

The pilot blogs on the internet do not have pilots suggesting it could be done cheaper than £50k , the cheapest I can think of is pilot_geeza's £56k modular training, which was 10+ years ago. ThePilotGuys creator did it in £130k total integrated. kcpilot did it in £65k modular and the PPL wasnt included since it was fully funded with a scholarship. I looked up AAFC and the cheapest ppl is £5.66k, I read on this forum that was the cheaper end of flight schools in Florida, USA.

Yes and with those schools it is now £30k for joint CPL ME/IR. £5k for ATPL theory, £10k PPL, £15k hour building and you're already at £60k without UPRT or MCC, or any extra hours needed along the way.
Add on the rest and you're at £70k to be CPL ME/IR MCC URPT. You then need travel, accommodation and general life costs on top.
This is the reality of flight training now in the UK.
Flight training, especially CPL, is well out of reach of most, no matter how hard they work. You need well off parents or a very well paying job.

The order of modules you have is on staplefords website/price breakdown too, its not exactly different. They also have the CPL last.

Don't believe everything you see. A CPL is no more than £5k, MEIR about the same and ATPL theory £2k by distance learning.

Ok look.. I'm a naturally sarcastic twa.t so that's how it comes across, but I'm genuiny trying to help:

Try to get away from this mindset of PPL, 100hrs PIC then CPL/IR.

You can absolutely do it that way if you wish, because it works and that is what the flight schools will try to sell you, however there is a better way. And by better I mean cheaper. I see from your repeated assertions that I've got my work cut out trying to steer you in the right direction but I'll try to elaborate:

Lets look at a school which gives you your CPL followed by your MEIR, you will have 200 hours PLUS 15 hours of ME training PLUS 30 hours of sim for the IR. You'll have paid for 245 hours - 215 loggable hours plus 30 sim hours that will cost almost as much as 30 airplane hours but count for very little. As someone who's been there and done it, anything over 5 hours in a sim is a waste of time but a great money maker for the schools.

If you get your IR before your CPL you'll finish with 200 hours in your logbook and save 15 unnecessary airplane hours. You will still have 30 sim hours to pay for.

If you get your IR before your CPL but via the CBIR route you'll finish with 200 hours in your logbook and you will have flown most of that in an airplane THAT YOU NEEDED TO FLY ANYWAY for the hour building, so you save yourself the sim cost. By doing the IR during your hour building, you're really only paying for the instructor.

If you get your IR before your CPL, via the CBIR route but in a single engine airplane THEN convert to MEIR, you finish with 200 hours and you will spend slightly more on test fees but you can now fly as few as 8 ME hours instead of 21 ME hour, saving up to (13 times the price difference between ME and SE)

Essentially by tweaking the order you can get the MEIR almost for free. In principle:
1) Get everything done within 200 hours
2) fly as few simulator hours as possible.
3) fly as few ME hours as possible.

If you still don't believe me, take the school's price list and compare their modular cost to the individual cost of their own courses in optimum order. Most schools really don't want people knowing this.

We have just reviewed this for Wings Alliance members because prices have been going up recently.; We make a realistic bottom-end cost to be about £57K from scratch, including APS-MCC, UPRT etc. This involves a fair bit of shopping around and does not include any travel costs to the US/Spain etc. but I think it is achievable. In the past we have had more than a few spend less than £40K to £45K. Possible training costs

Urgent advice needed!
 

Hello folks,
Where do I start? It’s seems that I really need an advice!

Recently, I started an integrated self funded programme in Hungary (4 weeks ago).
However, I feel like I made a huge mistake choosing this school.
A few weeks ago I had my first theory lessons in Principle of flight. And in my opinion the choice were clear. I don’t want to be in this school. I was very disappointed of the teachers level in English and methods of teaching.
I fulfilled my aerospace engineering degree few years ago, and even though I struggle to digest the whole material and prepare properly for the progress tests (every single week)
The whole rush, teaching atmosphere and poor living conditions make me feel very anxious. And even if my first exam was alright, I feel like I’m losing my passion to perform because of the constant pressure,poorly teaching methods,lack of communication and surrounding.
I feel so miserable every single day and I just can’t imagine the next 2 years stuck here.

What should I do ? Shall I change the school/programme (mentored) before to waste extra money?

Reasons to leave: An integrated course from a Hungarian ATO has literally all of the disadvantages (cost) with none of the advantages (connections), surely? How much have you given them and what is the refund policy?

Reasons to stay: Hungarian girls are hot.

Thank you for your fast response!

I haven’t given them anything yet. I have to make a payment up to 120 days after the start date.
The price of the whole program is 65k €. The first instalment suppose to be 15500€.

@ geryshayk can you give us a bit some detail which school is about? I'm sure lot of potential pilots want to know this... Thanx :)

[QUOTE=Hawkers;11544231]@ geryshayk can you give us a bit some detail which school is about? I'm sure lot of potential pilots want to know this... Thanx :)[/QUOTE

Sure! The school is located in Nyíregyháza,Hungry (around 4 hours by train from Budapest) The name is Trener Kft Flight academy or more famous like the “official” Wizz Air Pilot Academy.
I know that it might sound very impressive but it’s so far from how it sound.
This place isn’t worth it the money/time unless you are fully sponsored by Wizz air and you have no other options.
if you are self funded cadet - please avoid at all costs:)