Thinking of training in Florida?
 

Over the years, nay decades, that I have moderated these Wannabes forums there have been several constant debates. One of which has been the merit of EU citizens training for their PPL, Multi and CPL ratings in Florida.

That debate results in more threats of litigation than any other on this forum.

I don't wish to comment one way or the other on the quality of training offered by any USA based school.

My view, expressed on many threads, over many years, in many ways is that basic training is best conducted in the UK at the same school you wish to complete your CPL, Multi and IR at. The reasons are legion.

Over the years I have been asked to remove a great many threads and posts from these pages. The vast majority of which have been from USA based flying schools.

All of the above is fact and you can try to sue my hairy arse if it isn't.


WWW

If you're thinking of enrolling on the well advertised courses offered by XXXXXX or YYYYYY then do take note of my comments above.

WWW

- thanks for that visual image - I've just finished my dinner.

I feel that what WWW has said is not the whole truth. Yes there are some schools out in FL that are second rate, and use american instructors to teach a JAA course. However the school that I went to had 3 English instructors and one spanish instructor, who taught us our Multi engined CPL, and all 9 of us got first time skill test passes.
The beauty of doing this said instruction in FL is that the fuel is shed loads cheaper, and the weather is soo much better.Completed my ME/CPL in 4 weeks, try doing that in the UK.
Ace
:ok:

Dear WWW

Over the years, I have read a great deal of interesting and well written posts by yourself.

Not so this one. You fail to actually make a point, and seem more driven by frustration than logic.

There have been many posts on this forum worthy of litigation. If people would think about the consequenses of what they post, stick to the forum rules, not make false statements, or personal insults, then these threats would not arise.

Anyone wishing to go to any flight school is best advised to talk to those most qualified to comment - their alumni. You will rarely get a good reply on Pprune as too many people have agendas, and all the managers/owners of all the flight schools monitor these pages closely!

Ace,

I did at Halfpenny Green during the end of autumn into winter, so did 3 others.

I don't think we have ever crossed swords WWW , but why is this a "sticky"?
By the way, just to get a little advertising in sideways, I do disagree with you on your point about training in the USA.
I think it makes perfect sense to do FAA Zero-Hero followed by conversion in Europa-land.

Made a point, there..... deal with it.....:suspect:

Learned to fly in USA and had a fantastic experience at a local FBO in Clearwater St Pete's FLA, went back for CPL training and had another fantastic experience, in my view the place is pilot heaven and the best place to be a pilot (I have completed similar training in the UK and it was quite a contrast).

What's wrong with getting a tan and having some fun ?

Hey WWW How about enabling an opinion poll from those who have trained in Florida to see what the results are

e.g. q - Did you have a good experience of training in FLA / USA ?

wOULD BE GREAT TO SEE - I bet majority who have been brave enough to go there are positive !

Some people do have a positive experience. I'm not offering an opinion either way. What I am doing is asserting the fact that for years and years there have been more posts complaining about poor experiences at Florida based schools than any other comparable region. Many of those posts have been removed following complaints.

Wannabes thinking of spending money on flying training don't necessarily know this. Hence the factual sticky.

WWW

If you are after a JAR license in the UK that may make a difference to your experience

I trained at American owned and ran FAA training schools and had a great experience, unfortunately our JAA colleagues who run flight schools bring some of the UK attitude over with them.

If you fly in US then train with US and you won't go far wrong, once you are looking at JAR training then you are much more limited and there are many sharks preying on you (but some OK outfits as well but they have many customers and the customer service ethic is different)

So www how about the poll so that we get some actual data from people who have been there, many fears and objections come from those who have never flown stateside.:ok:

WWW

What are your thoughts on building up hours in the US then?

I am going to do all my training in the UK, but would like to build my hours up in Florida, due to the good weather, cheaper fuel etc.

Matt

Matt you should go to South Africa. I've got a lot of friends who have went their to do packages and have loved it.

Agreed; slightly longer flight but less jet lag when you get there.

Cheers

Whirls

If you want to do your flight training in the US of A, my suggestion would be to not take anything the schools themselves say at face value.
Talk to someone who actually attended the school, previous students and previous instructors.

Something I've come to learn after spending time in the USA is that many of my countrymen (including me), are rather naive in regards to what foreign flight schools will do to take your money more efficiently.

Still however, it's a better option than doing the training back home IMHO, especially the chance of working as an instructor (which was the major selling point for me before moving over). Just make sure you get stuff in writing from your school, and that you talk to recent graduates/instructors to get the real story.

Better still......how about the JAA Florida School that is so confident of great JAA instruction, great aircraft and a great location that they let you come out for a weekend, fly 3 hours, see the school, see the accomodation, sample the life style and do it for less than the cost of 3 hours instruction in the UK......around about $750!! Gotta see it to believe it.........ask OFT, OBA, EFT, NAC if they will do that!

Oh yes and all the instructors are JAA qualified too (as well as currently flying for airlines and corporate operators when not instructing)...and they are also JAA Examiners as well.........so standards are of the highest quality!

PM me for details..........or ask Key Grip on here...he knows how good it is!

Reading between the lines of WWW's post tells you all you need to know.

The slick websites of certain schools looks very appealing, but the problem is that too many students sign up for full courses without so much as even seeing the school and it turns out a shambles for one of a hundred reasons.

Then again, what do I know, as I think you should enjoy your training and not do it the cheapest/quickest etc way.

Many moons ago I completed my Private Licence at Naples Air Center.
There is alot of bad things said about the place and also alot of good things...!

Naples Air Center Now train the Sponsored pilots of a well known UK airline.

Nothing fancy about the place, go there, get what you paid for, and come home.

Ormond Beach are ment to ok aswell for the Private, dont know about commercial though.

hey Guys, what about EFT in ft.Pierce.
I'm planning to do my JAA ME/Cpl in there.
Any suggestion or information would be appreciated!
Many thanks
Cheers:ok:

Yeah - thats mighty fine.


WWW

Publication Test
 

Test Post 18 January 2010 10:40 EST

Had a bad experience in NAC along with other many students at the same time. It looks like they only look after the money and not after your formation as a pilot. Its my most sincere advice. Good luck in training.

My 2c
 

Here's my two cents (after training in Florida a couple of times, it's all I can afford!). Although I've been to two Florida flight schools not all of the points can be said about both. Once was pretty good in fact, but reading other people's posts from the big 4 JAR schools in Florida, these are my tips.

"British owned and operated" - means NOTHING. The people running the school may be British, but they are US companies and are subject to US law.

YOU have NO LEGAL RIGHTS whatsoever if things go wrong. If you are unhappy and want to leave, it will cost you DEARLY. There is no Citizens Advice Bureau or equivalent that has any powers to do anything.

If the school goes bust, YOU LOOSE EVERYTHING. You are a foreigner after all, and US law is not there to protect you. NEVER PAY UP FRONT, EVER EVER EVER.

THE CAA DO NOT CARE. You may think that all will be ok after a quick call to the CAA when things go wrong. Unfortunately this is not the case. You are ON YOUR OWN - the CAA do not want to annoy the FTOs over there and risk their all expenses paid inspection trips to Florida and they will do very little.

Check, check and double check contracts BEFORE you sign over a penny, book time off work or book a flight to Florida. Read the small print. My £3000 CPL cost me £1700 to Cancel, having flown for just two hours, and despite the cancellation fee being listed at 25%. Not to mention an emergency repatriation flight home (I was given 24 hours to leave Florida, and made to promise I would not approach another school for training [see point below]). So all in all, I got less than £1000 back.

If you do want to change schools - you can't. Your original school will cancel your visa, meaning a very expensive one way ticket home. You then need to do the whole visa process again, returning the Florida once approved to go to your new school.

And NO - I am not one of "the ones who were always down the pub" - which allegedly the ones who are trouble makers. I kept my head down and got on with it - and things still turned out VERY nasty!

Consider the exchange rate, lack of low cost flights to Florida and the increased living costs of being away from home. Yes a few weeks with Micky Mouse was great, but looking back I'd rather have saved my money and went back on holiday - flight training abroad is not as exotic as you may think. You really could be anywhere as so see so little of the place.

So, read/correct/bitch about my post - whether you take it on board is YOUR descision!

I was extremely unhappy about the quality of training being received. Can't think of a much better excuse to cut my losses and go elsewhere!

You say we have rights - but having read these forums for quite some time now, I am more inclined to beleive that the odds are stacked toward the flight schools, and not the students. If you can let me know of anyone from the UK who have successfully managed to sue a US flightschool, then send me the details!

That's me done - mods feel free to remove my post! (I won't be deleting it!).

Regards.

future jobs
 

Hey guys, i'm new here. I was just wondering if i could get any help....i live in malta (in the mediterranean) and already have a JAA PPL and will be doing my JAA ATPL CPL ME from next march at EFT in Florida. I was just wondering (actually worrying) if there would be pilot jobs for inexperienced pilots just like me. Would working as an FI help? Thanks

maybe i'll see u there.....i'll be starting the fast track to cpl next march

Sorry Spicejetter....
 

...after many years of warnings and dire stories/experiences in Pprune... you head for Florida and shovel out thousands of $$$$$ upfront! Sorry ol' buddy, no sympathy here! :ugh: bm

Um, wasn't looking for sympathy chick. Merely stating my personal experience of training in Florida. You only really get a good rate when you pre-pay in Florida. If you pay as you fly, you don't get much of as discount and it's not worth going over there.

SoCal App - sorry I didn't explain. This was two hours of flying, but had been at the school for a week having been messed around, experienced the place/management, heard and seen dodgy things regarding the running of the place etc etc.

I posted on here for advice at the time, saying I was unhappy and asked for advice on what to - having named no names/not identifying the flight school. I asked merely if it is possible to move flight schools once already in Florida. The FTO owner (who checked PPrune throughout the day at the time) frog marched me to a machine, made me log into PPrune, remove my post - telling the PPrune world that I was drunk at the time of posting, emotional, suffering from heat stroke and didn't mean what I said!

The following law suit proved fruitless, as I would have to pay large sums of money - of which I had none as I lost out due to cancelling my course and would have cost a lot more than I stood to gain if successful. The schools know that the chances of someone going through with a law suit are very low, which is why they get away with it. Why risk a few grand when you are already out of pocket and still need money for further training, revalidating your licences, ratings and medicals - and there there is the many thousands you need for the pay-to-fly scheme around. So much for the land of the free!! I'll stick with blighty.

All I'll say is fighting a legal battle with a FTO over is difficult.

Out of interest - can anyone let me know if they have been successful in taking legal action against a flight school in Florida. Over the last couple of years in particular I've seen many unhappy people and spoken to people keen to persue the matter. Could it be that the contracts we are made to sign on arrive (sign, or get out now!) are water tight in favour of the flightschool, or people have had issues brining a claim from abroad.

Whilst you technically have the same rights as a US citizen in the US, brining action when not in the US agaist a US is very difficuly for your average Joe.

Sorry Spicejetter..
 

So, you got a better rate by handing over $$ thousands upfront. Looking back, how much an hour did it finally work out at?

Just stop being gullible, ignorant cheapskates and get you basic training done at a quality school where you also do your proper JAA CPL/IR.

Muppets.

If its cheap its !!!!. Something you can apply to nearly everything in life including flying training.


WWW

Has WWW finally cracked?
 

Has the bulkhead blown, finally?

I am somewhat alarmed - the usually succint and diplomatic tone is lost and I get the feeling that a combination of saturday night, empty wine bottle and full whine bag has gotten to our economist.

That said, accurate as ever! Adam Smith would be proud.

WWW Has lost it completely

Mayday ! Mayday ! Mayday !

Can't hack the coctails, can't stand the heat, got to stick with rain and fog bound blighty

Oh dear what a shame !

I am right though.

The PPL forms the foundation of your flying skill. Just as with a house, cheap foundations are never ever a good thing.

The heartache expressed here over years of cheap Florida training would be enough to propel a decades worth of female-singer-songwriters to the moon and back. Thus my advice to stay the F away. Regardless of the school, airport, state, location, history, fleet, approval or quality of advertising.

There's more likely a brilliant school within 60 minutes of where you live in the UK/EU.


WWW

and just because you are a moderator WWW you get to make your opinion a 'sticky'. Pretty pathetic. I see pprune are still very happy to accept money from the Florida FTO's to advertise despite YOUR opinion which you get to force feed the forum just because of your moderator status.

If I wished to crush dissent and engage in propoganda I'd have deleted your comment and taken a far harsher line than I have. So get over yourself.

WWW

:{'and just because you are a moderator WWW you get to make your opinion a 'sticky'. Pretty pathetic. I see PPRuNe are still very happy to accept money from the Florida FTO's to advertise despite YOUR opinion which you get to force feed the forum just because of your moderator status.':{

This is rich; as I recall a thread was deleted in July 2007 at the behest of EFT, regarding the quality of RT examinations at their location. By a local examiner. Who had nothing to do with the school. Despite being listed as one of the owners. Oh, and regularly examining CPL skills tests.

It would seem that this is a dubious privilege extended to sponsors.

Are you seriously suggesting that moderators moderate their opinion on the sponsors' say as well? I am sure that you would agree, Mordacai, that business is one thing, freedom of speech another? Are you not taking the sponsors' privilege a little far?

No, don't delete any posts at my behest. I am speaking for myself, not for, or on behalf of EFT. I am an instructor at EFT.

My opinion is simply that I feel that WWW is abusing his position as a moderator by making this a sticky. He is entitled to his opinion, but let the thread live or die. I am entitled to my opinion but I don't get to make it a sticky. He is allowed to vent his vitriol, but I am told to get over myself?

Has WWW even visited the Florida flight schools?

Remember this is coming from the moderator who suggested that all wannabees should declare bankruptcy upon completion of training.

I'm the one who tours the flight schools Mordachai.

As Trevor can confirm going right back to when he trained my wife for a PPL in the Brooksville days.

I was able do a lot of mystery shopping visiting Florida up to 10 times a year and even included the skydiving and gliding joints. And now, as I approach my dotage, I find my kids fit the desired profile so nicely the process continues very effectively.

I don't have to add any more though as potential students can scan posts regarding your own school, the problems you've had in the past and your fulsome posts promising to make things right.

Everything spicejetter said about recovering from a bad training experience is absolutely true:

Stranger in town. Well, in the country actually.

FTO holds all the cards with the visa and money up front.

There's a long history of folks being asked to pay offshore to create further problems.

Student on a fixed timescale, a barely sufficient budget and, due to age and life experience, seeing instructors/owners as far higher up the aviation pecking order than reality warrants.

Every penny they have or can raise committed - nothing for a lawyer.

But most importantly of all Mord. Spend more than half an hour with FTO people in Florida and the conversation turns to the internal anger, aggression and strife between the Floridian schools. Such and such owns the school - how can he be the examiner. Non stop, never ending backbiting and slagging that makes PPRuNe look like a kindergarten.

Now contrast that to a student in the UK.

Found yourself in a crap school, one that doesn't deliver the goods?

They can't keep your training records.

They can't wave your visa over your head.

Holding your money? Just go online - fill in your claim - pay 10 quid and the court system is triggered.

Err, that's it. The legal system gets going for a tenner.

I look forward to the rebuttals from you, Socal and any other expat instructors.

Rob

No rebuttal from me. I simply feel that this thread should not be a sticky. As a matter of interest, how long is it since you visited FL?

USA and UK same language different culture...
 

the title says it all.........

When ya get a minute look at a map of the world..when ya realise (realize) that England is about the same size as upstate New York it should.. well kinda.. get ya thinkin'. Or maybe not?

Why do ya think they banned the BBC programme "Top Gear" from the USA?

Sticky threads are for spiders.
 

The thread's stickiness is, for the most part, irrelevant; that written is now in the public domain.

WWW has obviously hit upon a nerve that has caused Mordacai to react, as history shows, in character, but is probably the reaction of most operatives at Floridian FTOs.

Mordacai - you protest too much regarding your interests, in my opinion. You state regularly that you are not the voicepiece for EFT and are working alone on various points raised on fora. Yet, when EFT's administrator fails to account for account black holes, you raise a defence on behalf of the company with nary a word from official management - the silence of its absence quite deafening on the website.

This shouldn't be misconstrued as a personal attack on Mordacai or any other individual engaged in training in Florida - I believe it is a problem with JAR (as was) FTOs in Florida writ large. For reasons that PPRuNe Towers put so eloquently. They are all within the conceptual reach of the law but without the financial reach of most individuals. It would seem that the ultimate sanction to these operators is a risible artifice which can be hidden behind cravenly. Do right because it is right, not because it is the law.

Maybe it is time to regulate these places properly; CAA representatives performing spot checks, secret shopper surveys? That would cost money... it would put up the price of training, but expensive dreams should only be enlivened if you can afford to lose the stake.

If you subscribe to the notion that the CAA is only there to make life that bit more unbearable, then you should appreciate maybe their backing the 'approvals' list for foreign FTOs with legal aid to subscribers. Should a regulator merely uphold regulations or should they be helpful as well? Just a thought - possibly a new thread?