Integrated Courses, You Poor Humans!
 

With all these qualified and experienced people coming out of busted airlines ( Zoom, XL ) I was wondering how bad it would be for current Integrated students who are halfway through the course or who have paid their deposit and have no choice but to start in the coming weeks or months :ugh::ugh:

Most of them have probably reduced their parent's equity on the reassurance that a job after the 15 month course is more than likely.


What now then...what do you guys think?

G-XO

Schadenfreude
 

Such a delightful trait.

What's you're point. Do you need to gloat at peoples misfortunes to make you feel more adequate as a person?

I just wanted to know people's views :ugh:

Is that bad?...

G-XO

Don't say we didn't warn you :=

Out of interest, how are people finding funding for these courses?

I bet quite a few came from remortgaging their parents houses, but this is becoming a lot harder for people, as are massive secured loans.

Does this mean it is only for the mega rich, and not just the rich now?

G Cexo
 

Hardly a tactful way of posing the question.

15 months ago things were looking quite rosey, airlines had been hiring in large numbers. Anyone starting back then had a pretty good reason to feel confident.

At least this latest news will have been a wake up call for all but the most insanely optimistic people, the rest can plan accordingly and hold off their training for a while.

Well, I'm about to start an intergrated course with CTC, what do I think? Well thank christ I went to University!

I think we all have to be aware that we cannot predict the future, in 2 years time when I pop out of the intergrated course, what will the industry be like? I also know that this could affect the FTO's, HSBC have stopped doing the loan for CTC cadets as of September and infact all postgraduate loans, and from a friend I have heard BBVA have stopped their loan unless you can guarantee you will have a job (hmmm not likely).

That could mean a reduced amount of fresh pilots, but there could also be a surplus of experienced ones should anymore airlines go bust. (Highly likely)

In reality though as I am aware, you need to have your eyes wide open and have a real and effective backup plan.

Worrying times, but things won't always be like this.

At the last downturn the majority of students (on integrated) were all airline sponsored.

All the airlines immediately pulled the plug on those course (for ever).

However, today likes of ctc, cabair, fte, oaa, have majority self sponsored students. Its therefore much harder for joe bloggs wannabe to pull plug on their own training. Means by 2010 the fatpl market is going to be over saturated, what with the expected stagnated recruitment.

It's worth noting that if any school starts offering discounts for making payments up front, be very very cautious.

SFT were offering a 10% discount for up front payment just before they went under. Lots of students lost lots of money

The

I personally predict a shortage of potential integrated students applying in the coming year and inevitably a reduced course price. It won't be much maybe by 5-10%.

The Modular school will definately make more money now, possibly on PPL courses as people will be reluctant to spend any further until things blossom again.

Thats my view, it may be right or it may be tits up. :hmm:

G-XO

Well, for years integrated students have looked down their noses at us mere modulars. How the cookie crumbles. Forgive me if I don't loose any sleep over them. Even as recently as a month ago I've seen brainwashed monkeys come on here and proclaim that they (at 18/19), the integrated crowd are the only ones with a chance.

I'll admit that even I didn't see Zoom or XL going under, but I never took too much notice, as I'm wanting to Instruct and not fly airline.

We all took the risks when getting in to flight training, for some it works out, for some it doesn't. At this time, it looks like is hasn't worked out for the integrated crowed. This time next year it might be us plebbly modulars up sh-t creek, but those oweing £70-100k sans employment right now are the ones who are in deep shi- right now. Shows what a cyclic industry we have gotten involved with.

Well I've never looked down at modulars, so please don't put me in that boat.

I think the main thing is tht wannabees now are seeing the realities of what can happen if it does go wrong. 70k plus is a hell of alot to find. But why would you spend that without a backup? as said above, you can't go paying that bck stacking shelves at Tesco.

I think anyone, modular / intergrated needs to open their eyes and realise that walking onto a shiny jet maybe a pipe dream for a few years. But spicejetter, you're right, the industry / economy is cyclical. It will get better. The question is when and will we all be current?

I think that time will tell like most of you said. I have been pretty lucky and graduated in US, currently working as flight instructor also instrument and earning good money. After 1 year of work all my class mates and I are going back to europe for ATP exams and this will open the doors in both FAA and JAR sides, but still the market is not really good right now, so my options once done, would be to go back to my old job, something new, stay in US for a little more or back to US after the ATP's.

I have notice in my allmost half year of instructing that it also can depend on WHO you know in this industry, unfortunately..

Best of luck to everyone, keep on tight!:)

Only time will tell whether putting £70K is worth investing or not.

I have just recently passed my pilot assessment with Cabair and they have offered me a place starting on 5 Jan 2009, integrated course. There are quite a few airlines that have gone bankrupt and is not just those in UK. It's happening everwhere such as Oasis airlines (HK), a budget long haul airliner that has gone bankrupt several months ago. If I pass my medical in next 2 weeks time I will still go for the course even by getting a loan of £70K. You may think I am a crazy guy walking off the cliff, but nobody knows what will really happens in the future. Maybe the future will be a good one after students completed their course! Who knows? Or maybe we will be end up in a huge debt and have to live in cr@p hole? The main thing is that I accept the responsibility of whatever I do. Blame no one!

(I did some research and have found out that there are still some airliners continuing to buy aircrafts (large orders). Does this mean these airliners are walking off the cliff too?)

All the best to those who is training to be a pilot. I believe the future is aviation.
David

G-XO,

Not the most tactful thread I have ever seen!?! :\

Effectively nothing has changed. The advise to people considering flight training hasn't changed to last week.

Anyone involved with an integrated course needs to knuckle down and finish the commitment they have already made and not to let the stress and worry of recent events affect their training results, which presumably are of greater importance than ever.

A little tact and support to your future colleagues mightn't go a miss.

There are lots of aircraft on order. For the BAs, TUIs, monachs etc these wont coome until 2012ish - so no impact on recruitment for 4yrs or so. For ryan/flybe, there are now hundreds of redundant experienced rated pilots to employ, forget low hours lot.

With the coming winter and economic recession it is better for the airline not to grow and consolidate old for new aircraft being more fuel efficient.

If your 70K gamble is based on this flawed argument for recruitment, i really do wish you the best of luck!!

Artie,
Spot on post - :D

Huge gamble and serious consequences if it doesn't turn out the way you want it to be after you graduate. Way too much of a gamble even for someone like me who has the price of an integrated course in cash :sad:

G-XO

Cyclical industries
 

I was working in a major integrated FTO on 9/11. Complete mayhem.Glad to say I now meet captains with major airlines who were in training at that time. No career/job is for life these days, it is a big investment whichever way you train, nobody denies that but it is long term. The reason most people get into pilot training is because of the desire to fly. Very few people who approach the industry and the training sensibly do not get a good return on their money over their career and have a great working life. I dont understand G-CEXO and his gloating but I will challenge him to revisit this site in 5 years tell everybody what he is doing and be honest about time and money spent on his training (if he is a pilot) and I will introduce him to integrated students in training today and we will compare return on investment. I know who will be in front.

Best of luck G-CEXO but focus on yourself and your ambitions and committment, other people in difficulty will not make your career any better or more enjoyable.

As I believe my Good friend, HollingworthP alluded to earlier, Schadenfreude is not the most pleasant of human characteristics and there seems to be an unhealthy amount of it on this thread.

Spicejetter, I don't mean to be overly harsh, but you are one of the worst culprits. You really have bought into this theory that all integrated students are 18, paid for by mummy and daddy and ignorant beyond all compare. Further, you really seem to believe that at 28 you are the cats whiskers and know everything, frequently referring to "the kids" that do integrated. The reality, of those that I have met during my training is infinitely different, with the exception (i.e. the one thing you probably do have right) that a fair number have been fortunate that their families have been able to help financially - but VERY far from all of them.

Almost without exception, the guys and girls I know who are integrated, are genuine, intelligent and friendly people. I have never heard ANY of them wish modular students anything but goodwill, yet you seem to have bought into this theory that we all look down our noses at everyone else. That all integrated students think it's the only way to get in to an airline. Well the truth is so far removed. In my experience people choose integated because they believe it will give them a better chance...something we all want - the best chance of getting the job we all want.

Only a TINY percentage think the way you think we do. The truth is I see far more vitriol and unpleasantness from Mod students talking of integrated than I ever have vice versa. Your posts show you in a particularly unpleasant - and ill advised - light.

I wish you and EVERY student in this climate well, but if for no other reason could you at least TRY and show some compassion for the terrible situation that so many both training and experienced find themselves in for human reasons.

Phychological nonsense and charachter assasinations aside ;), I passed my IR a few months before 9/11 and it was just a minor blip for recruitment compared to what is happening now. If you think diggafile that you can compare what happened then to what is happening now you are very confused, it's like comparing stubbing your toe with loosing a leg :ugh:

btw, there is no difference between modular and integrated, I trainned at a school which took both, intergrated mixed with modular doing the CPL and IR and no one really knew who was who, it certainly wasn't discussed, things may have changed since, if they have then trainning schools need to take a good look at themselves.

I'm not sure i'd want to associate myself with anyone who viewed either type of student differently and if I was involved with recruitment in an airline I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone like that. They're either going to have a chip on their shoulder or a superiority complex, both particularly unpleasant traits.

ChrisLKKB,
I assume that was aimed at me...:}
I have no intention of assasinating anyone or anything....I just get very very tired of this continual assumption that all integrated students are backed by uber rich parents and look down their noses at anyone who didn't do integrated. Which is, in my opinion, every bit as inaccurate as the tiny percentage who really think that modular is inferior....

Your last two paragraphs are absolutely spot on....judge someone on the content of their personality, don't pre-judge them based on their method of training!....both training methods will turn out a mixture of great, good, average and decidedly poor pilots....

(and By Psychological nonsense I assume you mean the Schadenfreude reference....which I meant in it's true context - taking unexpected pleasure from someone elses pain, not the often referred to pycho context...)

Don't take it too seriously :}

btw mods, if you are going to delete sections of people posts, try and make it look like they haven't just started a sentance and then got bored.

bbtw it's no secret that the guy who ran SFT is running another flight school not too far away, I don't see the problem, no accusations are being made.

G CEXO, There are 2 paths to choose. One is to take a loan and see what the outcome will be after completing the course. The other is totally opposite not to take the loan and always wondering what will happen. What will you choose G CEXO?

Don't forget the price of a type. A massive percentage of OAA grads have gone onto Ryanair and had to stump up another 25 to 30k on top of the integrated course. 100k GBP of debt!

For almost the same price as an integrated course, you could go modular, buy an FI rating and a 320/737 rating. Surely that makes much more sense? :ok:

70k (plus interest) is a massive gamble kwokwinguk.

Id like to hear what the Oxford marketing guys are currently saying about job prospects at their infamous open days.

The one where I won't be drawn in with the marketing :mad:


That puts the icing on the cake. Good to see someone understands the luck you have these days with £100k debt :ugh::ugh:

Seeing that Ryanair have stopped recruitment until atleast feb09, there wont be a massive percentage of oaa grads going to ryanair any longer! Infact none! doh

I think that levelling a thread like this at integrated students is not the most sensible of things to do. I'll assume from the thread title thats it's only the int students who have to worry having forked out £XX,XXX (insert digits dependant on school). I feel the trainee demographic that should be concerned cannot just be defined by how much they have spent training! Everybody with an fATPL will for the next few months be a bit nervous about their employtment prosepects. It seems a little sour to improve ones self doubt due to the current downturn, by taunting those that have spent slightly more on their route to the licence.
As and when the slump picks up, i'll be watching this space to see who's bagging the jobs!

CR

If the max hsbc will loan someone to do OAAs course is £50k, how are people getting £100k in debt? Seems the max debt will be £50k, the rest will have to be saved up before starting. The repayments will be around £500-600 a month. If the student managed to save £50k before starting I would assume they had a good career to go back to after they finish, thus should be able to service the £600 a month. If it was given by rich parents, then as long as the student lives at home, they can make the repayments even on minimum wage.

On the other hand, training modular, paying for each lesson at a time then perhaps taking a smallish loan for the IR you could find yourself stuck trying to pay off the £200 a month loan on top of a mortgage and family.

This is why the mod/int debate will never end and threads like this are pointless. You can make either method look better just by choosing your words carefully.:ugh:

Rossco,
Thanks mate....a useful contribution here and one I fully agree with.

As for £100k in debt, I do wish people would stop manipulating things in order to make their own argument more cogent.
For 1/ Is the type rating really 25/30k? I don't believe so (although could be wrong, I don't know the FYR specific) but would have thought more like £20k
2/ The max HSBC will loan anyone is indeed £50k, so we're talking £70k debt absolute worst case (which, admittedly is a bad one), not the £100k those that want to justify their own position would have everyone believe.

Aviator is right...and you do have to wonder if/when people will start realising that the debate will never end and thereby stop TRYING to force it.

:D:D:D:D

Couldn't agree more

The money isn't so much the issue - its probably the maximum you could afford whether Int or Mod.

The real advantage for the Mod boys is that they can pretty much stop. Today. Put it all on hold. Go back to paid work.

Or, they can complete the module they are currently on and then delay the remaining bits. THAT is the real advantage they have over someone who has committed to a training timetable they can't change without losing money.

The KEY ISSUE is not that there will never be any new jobs ever again. There will. The KEY is not to get your first ever IR issued and then not get a job for 3 years. Its expensive to keep it current and you'll get so generally rusty and jaded with the whole thing that passing the interview/sim ride is much harder than if you finished training a couple of months ago.

For many the attraction of Int has been the perceived continuity and speed of it. In the current situation that attraction has turned into a negative aspect.


WWW

G-CEXO, what? you are scared? too bad for you. I will not change my mind on becoming a pilot, whatever happens. There are many jobs for starters all around the world. It's extremly sad for those people losing their jobs right now.

I would love for you to substantiate that claim....
(and we are talking about Joe Bloggs low hours fATPL with a British passport speaking only english btw)

Scared??....what the :mad: are you on about?? :}:}

G-XO

The quoted price on a course is for the minimum required hours which is what most people seem to budget for so assuming they put up 10-20k of their own money which could easily come from remortaging or a credit card to cover the remainder of the cost of the course (i've seen it done) we're up to 60-70k debt.

As with everything in life, things never go quite according to plan and it's not difficult to rack up some large unforseen bills. I've just checked Bristols hourly instruction rates.You're looking at £200/hr for a Warrior, £260/hr for an Arrow and £360 for a Senneca plus £20 per landing and £20 per approach .

Add to the original 60-70k a few extra hours for the ppl, a few for the imc, a few for the cpl and few for the IR, throw in some extra touch and goes and some extra approaches along with the odd exam resit and skills test retake and you wont see much change from 10k.

This happened in the past and it will continue to happen, most people I knew borrowed from family or put it on the credit card. Be advised, you are quite likely to go over hours for all aspects of flight trainning and it's a costly business. Add on 30K for a type rating and 100k doesn't look so inconceivable.

Nobody here is suggesting that anyone should give up on their plans, just hold off on them, little cliches like those in your last 2 sentances are frankly irresponsible at a time like this, you can't sum up the descision making process required for spending vast sums of money with a few lines that sound like they could have come out of a soppy Hollywood film....you're not the marketing manager of a flight school are you ?

At this moment in time, if you really have to start, modular seems like the logical way to go, i'd listen to WWW's advice, it gives you the flexibility you need at a time like this. Once you've got your ppl/imc, go somewhere sunny (and cheap), rent an aircraft and learn to fly, not just pass skills tests, flying on your own or with mates, exploring a different country (or part of the country) is where the fun is at.

End of the airline loans? (well for a little while)
 

Well I have it first hand that the airline loans will be drying up for abit. HSBC will be stopping at the end of September and BBVA s far as I'm aware have already stopped, this is including the one who can put up security!

But what does this mean? Will the FTOs start dropping like flies? Will int students start drying up because people cannot afford it? Who knows?

Will this then mean that in 2 years time when possibly the last intergrated students start popping out they could be considered the last batch for a while? Who knows.

What I think needs to be addressed that this is not just airline specific, houses are not selling, people are tightening their purses, life is getting expensive.

It's not simply bout when will their be jobs, but when will the economy start to improve.

I think until then being intergrated or modular possibly makes no difference, if there are no jobs, then noone cares which route you took.

As for addressing which is best, as a chap bout to start CTC, I have nothing but admiration for the chaps who do the modular route, I simply would not be able to do the 9-5 and do the flying. I know this becuse I tried it, it just didn't work for me! But I hve several friends who did and are flying for ryanair now!

Who cares how you got their? Just remember who helped you when you were struggling and try and pass abit of it on!

Best of luck to everyone who's trying to get on the ladder!

Jim