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I've checked section 1, however I couldn’t see a "definition" of a cross country flight (Even though LASORS definitely says 1.125).
I've solved the issue now, but if anyone manages to find the actual definition let me know. Cheers MP |
A'right Merc
I spoke to the CAA about this when I did my 300nm (540km) X-C. I had the same gripe as you, & they were very helpful in clearing up the situation. The term " In one day" was clearly defined by them as being a period of 24hrs, over one calender day. Therefore, you've got from 0000hrs to 0000hrs to complete the flight. As you are aware this must include 2 separate land away at different airports/aerodromes. Hope this helps HPC :ok: :} |
D 1.2 (D) JAR-FCL CPL(A) MODULAR COURSE FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS “20 hours cross country flight time as Pilot-in-command, including, a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540km (300nm) in the course of which full-stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be made.” There is no mention of a time period in this and there is no mention of returning to the original departure airport. Therefore a week long trip could count or even a one way flight with two stops would count. |
There is no mention of a time period in this and there is no mention of returning to the original departure airport. Therefore a week long trip could count or even a one way flight with two stops would count. LASORS is NOT the definitive document or legislation regarding regulations. (unlike the FARs) They come from the ANO etc etc. |
Meanwhile back in the real world, it's how it's logged that counts. I flew with a friend on his 300 mile cross country. It was over a leisurely three days starting in EIDW and took in Edinburgh, Blackpool and the IOM. Note Powdermonkey it wasn't exactly in Irish airspace. He logged it as happening on the same day. He's now a Captain in Aer Lingus, perhaps I should inform them and the IAA that he's just a fake. I just happen to think his flight gained him more and better experience than my own 300 mile simple exercise which followed the letter of the law and proved nothing more than that I can file a flight plan and keep a course on a nice day.
In fact I often wonder just how many 'Parker pen' qualifying cross countries there are out there? The rule is rather archaic and was obviously put in place to avoid the scenario of pilots qualifying for their commercial in spite of barely leaving the vicinity of their home airfield. But bureaucrats love their rules and all their pettifogging details. Gawd save us from them all. |
Jimmy
there IS a time limitation as shown by CONVERSATIONS with the CAA. |
During what time frame does the QXC have to be done?
Last year I flew a number of flights that would qualify, e.g. Swansea - Sleap - Redhill - Swansea or Swansea - Northampton - Redhill - Southend - Swansea and the other week I flew Swansea - Redhill - Old Sarum - Redhill - Swansea (6.1 hours that one) These would all be qualifying flights, however, as I will not be undertaking the actual CPL course until early next year would they still be valid? I suppose the question asks whether private flights, not flown as a supervised part of a CPL course, count? 2close |
This is quite interesting. If you plan to do the FAA commercial as well as the JAR it is worth bearing in mind that the FAA require you to do the trip SOLO and that you must land at a point at least 250nm (in a straight line) from your starting point which in practice will give a trip of about 550-600 miles as an out and return.
When I did mine, I managed a trip which would meet both the JAR and FAA requirements just in case. (it works out cheaper anyway than doing two trips).The differences are subtle but they are substantial. It does means doing the whole trip on your own and that is more challenging. |
300nm qualifier
I have read LASORS and am a little confused with the requirement, Does the trip have to be...
A-B-C or A-B-C-A ? LASORS say's "two landings away from your departure airfield" but does this mean you have to return to your departure airfield or not :confused: Thanx for your help Vilo |
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define cross country
hello, im going for my CFI tomorrow, not that that is really relevant but it would be nice to know for the checkride anyway, but what i don't know and can't find out in the FARs anywhere is what qualifies as cross country (FAA here) now for the purpose of checkrides it's 50 miles plus to qualify for cross country, but an examiner i did a checkride with once read out of the FAR that it is from one airport to another, but i spoke to him the other day and he said no that was 6 years ago, but he read this out 6 months ago, nob! anyway so can anybody clear this up, cos it would be nice if it's airport to airpot as that gives me another 50 hours, only reply if you really know what you're talking about, no offence to the guessers, cheers
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I found this in Section A of LASORS:
'Cross-country flight' means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than 3 nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure. |
LASORS is for rules surrounding UK-issued licences and not the US. ;)
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Oh well, tommyh7's attempts to put off guessers is likely to fail if I don't even bother to read the question :O
soz! |
XC in USA is a flight from point A to B (with landing), where straight line distance from A to B is 50NM +
HB |
Can you quote an authoritative source on that, HB? ;) ;)
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I became curious and found this:
(3) Cross-country time means— (i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight— (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate; (B) Conducted in an aircraft; (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. (ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight— (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft; (B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. (iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that— (A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and (B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. (iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that— (A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and (B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. (v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight— (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft; (B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. (vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight— (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft; (B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems. (vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight— (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft; (B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems. Check ride requirements in other FARs like 61.101 for PPL |
well cheers for those who didnt really know but had a stab anyway, and thankyou (seriously) high wing drifter, thats what i got read to me by an examiner who now claims that that is obselete, where did you get this info? what FAR is it? and is it current?
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see i was right :-)
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Tommy, if you don't want guesses or help from unqualified contributors, then take your question to the FAA - the only unquestionable authority on the matter.
Scroggs |
If the recent comments were directed towards me, it wasnt a guess, and I didnt have a stab at it :ugh: I posted my reply at 11pm last night and wasnt about to go through the FAR's.
I passed my FAA IR recently and had to have 50 hours cross country, so I found out what the FAA defined as XC, and answered the question in hand, which was a simplified version of what high wing pasted after. HB |
Tommy,
By chance your query was a topic of last weeks AOPA email newsletter. See below. Julian. ==> EXPERT ADVICE <== FLIGHT TIME: THE FINER POINTS OF LOGGING CROSS-COUNTRIES You can log cross-country time anytime you land at an airport other than your point of departure, regardless of the distance between those points, according to FAR 61.1. But a closer look at the regulation reveals three more ways to log cross-countries. If you want to apply cross-country time toward a private or commercial pilot certificate or instrument rating, you can only count those flights in which you landed at an airport more than 50 nautical miles straight-line distance from your departure point. Now, let's say you are applying for an airline transport pilot certificate. Then you can count any cross-country flight that was greater than 50 nm straight-line distance from your departure airport, regardless of where you landed. The cross-country rule changes yet again when applying time toward a sport pilot certificate: Then you only have to land at an airport 25 nm straight-line distance from the departure airport. Makes perfect sense, right? To learn more about the finer points of logging time, AOPA encourages you to contact its Pilot Information Center (800/USA-AOPA) and check out its online subject report ( http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/logbooks.html ). |
CPL Qualifier flight
A mate is contemplating doing his 300nm CPL Qualifier trip (The one required before one can commence the CPL) using two airfields in France. He will be departing and arriving from Elstree. Is this acceptable?
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No problem with that. provided it meets the requirements i.e. 300nm and land at 2 airfields other than point of departure then it is acceptable.
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Cpl Qxc
I think there is also a requirement for the route to be the one that is most direct i.e. not the one which takes you 50nm off track so you can dip the wings over Auntie Margaret's house. Saying that, it is probably pretty obvious to suggest that even though the most direct route must be taken, things like restricted areas, danger zones and Class A airspace should be avoided! :p
I could also recommend keeping all logs, flight plans, notams, landing fee invoices, fuel bills and hire documents after the flight - just incase someone questions it. I doubt they would, but who knows.... Enjoy, I certainly did with mine! |
dont worry about the CAA asking for that stuff. just make sure there are 3 entries in your logbook all on the same day, with 2 airfields other than point of departure, with a total time of at least 3 hours give or take, thats all they'd look for.
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I agree with hour builder, it is unlikely that the caa will ask for that, however I would still keep it all anyway
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Far Xc
Tommy,
It's FAR Part 61.1 (b)(3)(ii) for your purposes of meeting aeronautical experience in the US the 50NM will always apply |
Cross-Country UK definition for US training?
Hello,
Just had a few questions on logbooks. 1/ The first is regarding X-C country flights. LASORS states that a "Cross-Country flight means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than 3 nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure." I only just noticed this, and am chuffed as I was about to do several extra navs to make up my 20hrs X-C requirement for CPL, thinking that many of my previous flights didn't count. The fact they do saves me a lot of time and money. Which is nice! I understand (although cant quote) that the FAA definition involves landing at a different airfield at least 50nm away. I did a JAR PPL at a US school back in 2001, and was wondering if I should log those flights using the JAR definition or the FAA definition. I would assume the JAR, but want to make sure, although I haven't a clue where to look for the answer. 2/ LASORS states that you can log a succesful flight test with any JAA/CAA examiner, as PICUS. Would this be the case for a checkride, i.e. when planning to hire from a flight school for the first time? If not, what would the flight be logged as? P/UT? 3/ Is there any requirement to use the word 'Self' in the Name of PIC logbook column for solo flight, or can you use your surname? Cheers |
yeh I've always wondered with varying answers whether the successful general flight test for PPL can count as p1?
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Hey Philltowns.
According to FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B) .... for the purpose of meeting the aeronautical requirements, for a private pilot certificate (FAA), cross country times means - "a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure." If you were training for, did the checkride with a JAA certified examiner and received a JAA license then I would agree with you in that you would most likely note it accordingly in your logbook. My FAA PPL checkride was noted as PIC. |
watch out with those defs
Im dealing with the same puzzle, I need 50 xc PIC prior to converting my FAA IR to the JAR, to complete the fATPL. I got the following as an answer directly from the CAA:
"Under former national arrangements we defined the definition of a cross-country flight for the purposes of gaining a PPL within CAP53. The cross-country definiion that you are referring to is that within Schedule 8 of the ANO but only really applies to the Instructor rating. JAR-FCL 1 at Amendment 7 will introduce a new definition of a cross-country flight comparable with our former CAP 53 definition as follows:- Cross-Country 'A flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route using standard navigation procedures.' Whilst we have not yet adopted this, this should be the definition that we have previously accepted under national arrangements. I hope that this answers your enquiry." I don't know quite what that means, but thats what they are using.... |
300NM nav
Hello there!!
the time has come now in my hour building to think about doing my 300nm nav run for my cpl licence issue. I was wondering if any of your guys/girls knew if i could do this over 2 days, or does it have to be done in 1 day? I will be flying from Cardiff, going over to Ireland, staying there a night, flying to another airport in Ireland, and then back to Cardiff. Would the CAA accept this or not?? Any advice welcome Cheers, Craig |
No, I think it all has to be done in the one day, unless there was valid reason not to... weather, tech problems, etc...
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That is the word that goes around......HOWEVER, neither Lasors nor JAR FCL 1.155 specify that it must be done on the same day.
What if the trip was done overnight? I think the test of 'what is reasonable' needs to be applied. If you left Cardiff at 1800 and flew to Waterford, then later flew up to Dublin or Belfast and returned directly to Cardiff the following morning arriving at Cardiff by 0600 I would have thought that would be perfectly reasonable and acceptable. It would in fact be more demanding than carrying out the same trip, leaving Cardiff at 0600 and finishing at 2200 on the same day. On the licence application form you have to state the date of the QXC. The CAA officer handling the application will check your log book on that date. If it showed the above I couldn't see it being a problem. The people to ask are........drum roll........the CAA!!! |
Pazza1
I wish you would have done a search where this question has been answered multiple times. LASORS is not the legal document. There was a notice sent round to all UK CAA schools stating that the CPL Qualifying trip must be completed over one day. At the discretion of the CAA due to technical reasons only will they accept a 2 day Cross country. In short, just do it on one day. |
Brakes on, big fella,
It's not my question, therefore, it's not my place to do the search. You will read from my use of words that I made use of phrases such as 'I think' and 'I would have thought'. That clearly implied that these are my opinions and not statements of hard fact. I would have thought that the closing sentence "The people to ask are the CAA" would have given a clue as to my advice. However, I stand by my guns and since you point out that the CAA has released a notice (which I haven't seen and have been unable to find on the CAA website so would be very grateful for a link or document name even) I would point out the following, for which I will use your statement that "There was a notice sent round to all UK CAA schools stating that the CPL Qualifying trip must be completed over one day." The definition of 'day' is a period of 24 hours and has no reference to date: "The 24-hour period during which the earth completes one rotation on its axis" It is not a SI Unit but is accepted as such, the actual SI unit being the second. The ANO does not contain any alternative definition, therefore, any trip that begins and ends within the same period of 24 hours, regardless of whether it is overnight or not would meet the requirements that the trip has been conducted within 'one day'. I would argue that point black and blue with the CAA and in the absence of production of any LEGAL document showing otherwise I cannot see how they could fail to accept it. Thanks for bringing this point up - I've found it a handy learning tool. 2close |
To be honest, I thought clocking up 300nm might have been a problem, given some of the airspace in the UK but I cracked it. Take a nice day, set course for Wales in uninhibited Class G and land say at Aberporth then perhaps Swansea or another enroute airfield on your way back. Get the sightseeing in and straightline distances go out thw window. I think I clocked up 430nm according to my GPS. With my 196, I can also prove I did it :}
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Big Grecian...
There was a notice sent round to all UK CAA schools stating that the CPL Qualifying trip must be completed over one day. |
If the CAA communicated it, then it would (should) be here: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...e=sercat&id=26
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