dlav,

I tend to agree with you. That's what the page says too.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/career-03.htm

I'm nothing to do with Oxford, but I don't see the value in putting down a school for its accomplishments!

Going by my rough workings out and Scrogg's corrections, I reckon Oxford supplied the vast majority of BA's fATPL intake this year too.

I agree with other posters, WWW in particular, the training is probably same whereever you go and Oxford won't be able to teach you to fly smarter or better than the next place. But somehow I think that missed the point. If Oxford has established itself as a trusted supplier then why would a recruiter go to the trouble of sourcing candidates from hither and thither.

The old cliche that nobody ever got sacked for buying IBM is so very true, and IBM has never really been the 'best' hardware manufactuerer, but everyone knows it is good enough.

There must be one of you in this 4 bar arguement that is typing away with his OAT employee of the year certificate sitting proudly on the wall in front of you (or maybe not, why would you be here if you were Employee of the year?) who can tell us the truth about the actual numbers going forward and the actual numbers who get put forward and the actual facts.
There is far too much estimation and rough number speculation for any real conclusion here.
The OAT website does detail the number of known employments this year (there's probably others on top of that they don't know of too) Having said that, is anything governing how they present these numbers? I believe that graduates remain on their list for 12 months which suggests that their 169 jobs are from Jan 04 graduates up to November 05 Graduates.

How many have grauated since Jan 04?
How many graduates are accounted for?
How many times will a graduate be selected for interview in their 12 months

Oh Go on - tell us!!!!
;)

office boy,

a minor point i know but you are wrong in saying that the number of SSP's to BA from Oat is single figures this year.

regards
d2k

TWIT-TWOO!!

dlav,
Sorry my last post was a bit of a rant. I was drinking potato moon shine before I went shootin'!!

Go to OAT (I wouldn't for my own reasons that have been mentioned by numerours posters).
The point of this thread was about Pilot/OAT pamphlet (hence the title) not about OAT v The Rest of the FTO world.

So in summary of the posts...

1 The best FTO is the one that suits you
2 Modular training at any FTO will suffice to get the first job
3 Pilot mag is now known as Piloat Mag.
4 Lies, Damn Lies and then pilot employment figures.
5 Royal Forest of Dean - great place to live and shoot outsiders!
6 6 fingers are better than 4
7 It's the same exams/ flight tests/ examiners
8 Save yourself 30k and go to another FTO.
9 Porshes are for possers
10 Merry Christmas and Happy New Year where ever you go!

TWIT-TWOO

:8

Porridge, et al,

Fair points.

But, I have been researching the FTOs for the last 5 year an I am neither any closer to finding the money to pay for any of them nor any closer to finding which one provides more chance of a job (and preferably not a TP job, as much as I would like one, paying 18K a year!).

There are about 4 or 5 big name schools I have been watching and NONE can (are willing to) give you a percentage of how many jobs gained versus how many pilots trained. Absolute figures, yes - in which case OAT comes out best.

Sure, don't fall for the marketting hype, and I am sure OAT is at the top of the board when is comes to marketting, but few others even seem willing to give the basic figures on job prospects. There may be a certain amount of sour grapes on here by folks unable to pay Oxford's prices and feeling, rightly or wrongly, at a dissadvantage. How many of the posters on this threat have attained fATPL and gone onto an airline job?

At the end of the day I am sure a trainee from any school can be the best there is....but if that school doesn't give you access to the job, then why go there? The hype might well work both ways - it attracts trainees and it also attracts airlines, in the same way Oxford, Cambridge or Eton attract both. You might not like it, but business works that way.

Ultimately, only one school has offered attractive sponsorship positions so far and that for me counts for a lot as it is the only way I could possibly undertake training.

That's exactly why i'm worried. I appreciate this is maybe not the right topic, but the way people are selected it implies if you didn't cough up the money to pay your way to Oxford, you are not considered. As an ATPL wannabee, where will that put me in a few years time when ALL the fATPL intake is satisfied by OAT?

Also, if BA / BMI / *insert airline here* has a stream of graduates on tap, why would they bother looking at CV's or other app's from fATPL holders? More work for them, so in the end these places end up like factories churning out pilots, and it's a case of "if you can't afford it, then don't bother". THAT'S why i'm worried.

Horgy

In theory this is a worrying situation indeed.

The most worrying aspect is the cover-your-arse mentality of some airline recruiters. If they take on a cadet from an unknown school and (s)he fails the type rating, they might have to answer to superiors and justify why that person was hired.

But recruit someone from OAT, and if that cadet fails, then the recruiter will say - hey, they've been delivering good pilots to us for the last XX years, and the system has been working fine, so if an individual fails, it's not our fault! Kick'em out, problem solved.

Of course, in reality OAT don't produce better pilots than many other schools. But they deliver their pilots with a sort of unwritten guarantee which airline recruiters can fall back on if things go wrong during the type training.

But in pratice, the good news is, unless another Sept 11th happens, there's no way that all UK recruitment (never mind JAA recruitment in general) can be satisfied by the intergrated cadets of the top 2 or 3 schools alone - particularly if the projected growth figures for UK and European air travel over the next few years prove to be accurate.

Also, many recruiters don't want the type of 250-hr cadet who had daddy put up his house as security to get a loan for for the APP. The self-improver route still shows a great deal of dedication, determination and persistence which perhaps doesn't mean a lot to certain airlines - especially those with a cover-your-arse-mentality- but to others, I think it does.

Yeah,

KK


PS - Dave Martin - you make an interesting point. True, business might "work that way", "whether we like it or not" - but don't forget, so does marketing.
There simply is NO GUARANTEE that you will end up with a job upon spending 30 grand extra at Oxford. Further, there are NO CLEAR FIGURES in existence anywhere that show how much *better* your chances are. Talking of business? Talking of ROI? You need figures to make these decisions. This thread in itself is a reflection of the inconsistency regarding employment figures of APP graduates.

Trust me - nobody gives a damn. Most airlines that express a preference for Integrated graduates actually end up taking Modular guys.

Thinking never mind saying out loud that attending OATS gives you an advantage is likely to make you look like Alan Partridge to most involved in the industry. Its excruitatingly embarassing to hear it voiced..

Get BETTER training and POCKET the saving and FORGET the marketing hype.

Avoid Integrated completely would be my advice. The OATS waypoints product does appear to have some merit so if you are hell bent on learning to fly at a small muddy airfield in incredibly expensive Oxfordshire then maybe that is the product for you.

There are similar issues with an airfield in Bedforshire run by the sort of people who think Milton Keynes is an acceptable place to live; and also Jerez which is an excellent place to put a flying school were it not for the Spanish authorities, the weather and the 1000nms it is from most peoples home and loved ones.

Cheers

WWW

I am thinking of going to OAT and doing the APP but what do yyou think is wrong with it? Would you recommend it? Have any of you been there so you can tell me some facts about whether or not OAT do give you a better chance of a job

I would like to fly BA when I graduate from a flying school. To do that I MUST go to either OAT, CCAT or FTE, and complete one of their integrated courses.

They don't take modular students directly in from the schools.

Who said that? the head of BA pilot recruiting. And they have taken on 70 pilots via SSP this year, with slightly more from OAT (being the larger of the 3 schools).

Keep the dream alive! :ok:

If you wish to publicise a wbsite of your own on our open forums, it would be polite of you to ask us first. We generally have no objection to non-commercial aviation-related sites being linked to via your 'www' button, but don't push the privilege! Remember, advertising is specifically prohibited on Pprune unless you are prepared to pay.

Scroggs

I suppose, if you are considering integrated just to get into a preferred airline, you must consider what will happen if you don't get the tap on the shoulder from the FTO.

One thing a modular student will never need to do is justify why they weren't placed.

student pilot domain - now that's a very silly attitude that will do you no good at all.

You aspiration to become a commercial airline pilot is not too far removed from a schoolboys ambition to go out into the world and become a professional footballer.

Now this is hard, competition is fierce and many never make it. But if said schoolboy was determined that he only wanted to be a professional footballer only for Manchester United then you'd have to tell him that he was being unrealistically silly. That he was far better off trying to get signed by Coventry first then get a good agent and then look for a transfer to any Premier club.

If his career panned out he might end up in ManU but he shouldn't bet on it. BA is your Manchester United..


If the money for training really isn't much of a stretch and for many it isn't then by all means go Integrated and enjoy the benefits. However, don't go around spouting your desire to only work for BA/BMI/Virgin. It sounds like you consider other airlines and types of flying beneath you and when you have only 200hrs and know virtually nothing then people will jump to the conclusion that you are a twerp. This can be very career limiting.

Never ever Big Up how prestigious 'your' FTO was and never ever look down your nose at any professional piloting job. These things come back to haunt you. I've seen it happen.

Good luck,

WWW

To add to WWW's post, Student Pilot Domain, it is not true that BA only recruit from the schools you mention. Several modular students have recently been employed by BA, and BA's Direct Entry Pilot scheme has for some time been accepting very low-houred guys type rated on BA's aircraft.

Ambition is great. Don't devalue it with incorrect assumptions or arrogance. And (as with your website) don't ty and run before you can crawl.

Scroggs

Irrespective of what the BA recruiter says they do take SSPs from one modular school, CTC, and I would imagine that the majority of Direct Entry Pilots they have hired in the last year were also modular trained - aah, Scroggs, you beat me to it.

CPL_Ace Nothing governs advertising claims made on a company's own websites, they are specifically excluded from the scrutiny of the Advertising Standards Authority. You can make any claims you like, no-one can challenge them, no-one can check them. ASA Website Section 1.2 (q)

On the other hand you have to give Anthony credit for OAT's marketing - its absolutely solid

Re: Pilot/OAT pamphlet DO NOT BUY!!!
 

WWW,

Unfortunately this is not always the case. Our mob, well our 'recruitment person' will only look at OAT 'graduates' for F/O positions, unless someone is already type-rated. Their justification is that OAT can provide a full training report for each candidate, which they claim would not be available for modular candidates. Ironically said individual came into the industry via the modular method.

Re: Pilot/OAT pamphlet DO NOT BUY!!!
 

These type of threads always amaze me. Some people really do seem to have such a blinkered view of the world. The integrated vs mod debate will never be settled because there is NO right answer. It is all down to what YOU as a student prefer and obviously your financial situation. OAT is a good school, Jerez is a good school, there are many many good modular schools. There really shouldn't be all this bickering between the modular and integrated courses. BOTH courses have lots of advantages and BOTH courses have their disadvantages.

This post isn't directed at anyone in particular but it just seems that it is impossible to talk about the two courses without it coming down to the modulars shouting that integrated is expensive and the integrateds shouting the mods won't get jobs! :ooh:

Re: Dan016 OAT info
 

Dear Dan016,

With regards to your earlier thread request about OAT info, pay a visit to OAT, get a brochure and for an accurate, indepth student insight to OAT buy a copy of Pilot magazine.

Written by my flyin' buddy Will (the reason for the start of this thread) you will gain a reasonaby good idea of how is is here.............you have to read between the lines of the article.

The job front is currently a little slow for most of us at the moment but at least 60% of the APP courses are being called forward for BA interviews BEFORE completing the IR or MCC.

Fingers crossed for more recruitment in the new year.

Good luck with whichever FTO you choose, modular or intergrated.:ok: