Pilot/OAT pamphlet DO NOT BUY!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: FOREST OF DEAN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot/OAT pamphlet DO NOT BUY!!!
TWIT-TWOO!!
I will not be purchasing Pilot any more. Discuss.....
1. Fed up of only seeing articles of how OAT are the dog's and every other FTO is Crap.
2. " Articles on how to be an airline pilot" - sponsored by OAT
3. It's a fantastic plane and a snip at 125,000 quid!! (honest)
4. Edited by ... OAT
5. Is it me ? Flyer is a better mag anyway.
Discuss.......
TWIT-TWOO !!!
I will not be purchasing Pilot any more. Discuss.....
1. Fed up of only seeing articles of how OAT are the dog's and every other FTO is Crap.
2. " Articles on how to be an airline pilot" - sponsored by OAT
3. It's a fantastic plane and a snip at 125,000 quid!! (honest)
4. Edited by ... OAT
5. Is it me ? Flyer is a better mag anyway.
Discuss.......
TWIT-TWOO !!!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: england
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting, it does seem to aim at the higher end of the market, but one of my fav bits is the "how to fly like a proffesional" series, which in my limited experience is a very good read, and seems to offer sound safe advice. Also, the buyers guides seem to be quite sensible and pretty well researched. I have a love of all flying things, and I suppose its a bit like reading Evo magazine, whilst its probably more relevant to read horrible boring diesel car monthly, it is occasionally nice to read about £,000,000,000 worth of exotica being driven/flown etc.
And I must start buying flyer as well
I do agree the OAT article is a bit OTT though, I can think of far more interesting "development" stories to follow, but hey, if you don't like it turn the page
And I must start buying flyer as well
I do agree the OAT article is a bit OTT though, I can think of far more interesting "development" stories to follow, but hey, if you don't like it turn the page
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have to agree with you on this. However, you need to remember that this company makes Mandelson and Campbell look like mere 'babes in the wood' when it comes to marketing hype and spin.
Certainly when it comes to the type of wannabee they attract it proves a number of the old adages: i.e. - 'one born every minute' and 'a fool and his money', etc.
However if someone wants to be spoon fed and shoe-horned into the job - then they must expect to pay a hefty premium for their lack of initiative. The ones who have more chance of making it to the left hand seat rapidly are usually people who have used a great deal of initiative, researched and taken their training seriously and spent their resources wisely. Consequently they are the people who have good leadership and interpersonal skills and thus are the right commander material.
Yes, if Flyer maintains it’s integrity then it’s probably going to be the better choice.
Certainly when it comes to the type of wannabee they attract it proves a number of the old adages: i.e. - 'one born every minute' and 'a fool and his money', etc.
However if someone wants to be spoon fed and shoe-horned into the job - then they must expect to pay a hefty premium for their lack of initiative. The ones who have more chance of making it to the left hand seat rapidly are usually people who have used a great deal of initiative, researched and taken their training seriously and spent their resources wisely. Consequently they are the people who have good leadership and interpersonal skills and thus are the right commander material.
Yes, if Flyer maintains it’s integrity then it’s probably going to be the better choice.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vested Interest
These magazines get a lot of revenue from OAT etc so its in their interest to say 'yes its well worth the cash; you'll easily get a job.
What you will never see are articles about the reality of how much the real cost of training is.
What you will never see are articles about the reality of how much the real cost of training is.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: West London
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I noticed on the 'Pilot' website last week a congratulatory blurb from the OAT marketing department explaining what a grand magazine 'Pilot' was.
It now seems to have disappeared. Pprune embarassment?
Or possibly they've changed their name to 'Piloat'
It now seems to have disappeared. Pprune embarassment?
Or possibly they've changed their name to 'Piloat'
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you’ll find porridge that for the vast majority of people at Oxford, no one is expecting to be spoon fed/shoe horned into a job. Don’t get me wrong, there are sorts who probably think it’s owed to them (I’m sure those people are everywhere) but certainly all the people I know are more than aware that the effort is 99% of getting a job is yours. Oxford provide some opportunities (whereby they are approached for low-hours pilots by some airlines) and if you are lucky to be put forward, you’ll be up against other people, will have to attend at least an interview and a sim ride (and possibly an aptitude style screening selection) and if you get through it all, then of course, you are good enough for the job… (I think that figures).
As for:
“The ones who have more chance of making it to the left hand seat rapidly are usually people who have used a great deal of initiative, researched and taken their training seriously and spent their resources wisely”
Everyone I know at this school takes their training seriously, (even the fortunate few who’ve had their parents fork out for it all) I spent many, many years of research working things out in this career (before there was such thing as internet) and many years of working hard and saving harder. There are people from all walks of life at Oxford, hell, there are high-flight professionals from careers that take 5 times as long to train for as long as this one does, and 5 times as long again to get yourself established. They chose Oxford because it was (they felt) the right place for them to train. I don’t think you can question their initiative, they’re much more cynical and (extremely) switched on. The “spoilt brat” is present at Oxford/Jerez/Cabair/everywhere else, but in the extreme minority.
I went to the schools that I thought I wanted to train at, asked some questions, got some answers (didn’t just ask HR & Management either) went down to the halls of residence, or the smokers room and found out the about the real school. At the end of it all, I sat down, with my wishes in one hand, my hard earned finances in another and kneaded it all together in a ball………it was certainly not a question of “I want to go to Oxford because they’lll get me a job”……I feel I “spent my resources wisely” on a school that was right for me.
I won’t try and sell mine or any other school on here, if you want to have a look at it, then go and have a look at it, if not, then don’t. At the end of the day, the flying school you choose is a massive decision (as is modular vs integrated) and anyone reading an article on pprune or in a flyer magazine as a basis for spending a hell of a lot of money, frankly lacks the basic judgement to become an airline pilot in the first place!
As for:
“The ones who have more chance of making it to the left hand seat rapidly are usually people who have used a great deal of initiative, researched and taken their training seriously and spent their resources wisely”
Everyone I know at this school takes their training seriously, (even the fortunate few who’ve had their parents fork out for it all) I spent many, many years of research working things out in this career (before there was such thing as internet) and many years of working hard and saving harder. There are people from all walks of life at Oxford, hell, there are high-flight professionals from careers that take 5 times as long to train for as long as this one does, and 5 times as long again to get yourself established. They chose Oxford because it was (they felt) the right place for them to train. I don’t think you can question their initiative, they’re much more cynical and (extremely) switched on. The “spoilt brat” is present at Oxford/Jerez/Cabair/everywhere else, but in the extreme minority.
I went to the schools that I thought I wanted to train at, asked some questions, got some answers (didn’t just ask HR & Management either) went down to the halls of residence, or the smokers room and found out the about the real school. At the end of it all, I sat down, with my wishes in one hand, my hard earned finances in another and kneaded it all together in a ball………it was certainly not a question of “I want to go to Oxford because they’lll get me a job”……I feel I “spent my resources wisely” on a school that was right for me.
I won’t try and sell mine or any other school on here, if you want to have a look at it, then go and have a look at it, if not, then don’t. At the end of the day, the flying school you choose is a massive decision (as is modular vs integrated) and anyone reading an article on pprune or in a flyer magazine as a basis for spending a hell of a lot of money, frankly lacks the basic judgement to become an airline pilot in the first place!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: FOREST OF DEAN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TWIT-TWOO!!
MOO ,
I think your missing the point of the thread. It's not about the students or the decision/ reason made to enlist at OAT but the biased reporting in Pilot Mag.
You state judgement is a necessary skill to become an airline pilot. I suggest so is the ability to analyse and digest opinions/topics from a discussion.
Anyway,
TWIT-TWOO!! (is sexier than MOO!!!! )
Sorry couldn't resist - been on the Pop!!
MOO ,
I think your missing the point of the thread. It's not about the students or the decision/ reason made to enlist at OAT but the biased reporting in Pilot Mag.
You state judgement is a necessary skill to become an airline pilot. I suggest so is the ability to analyse and digest opinions/topics from a discussion.
Anyway,
TWIT-TWOO!! (is sexier than MOO!!!! )
Sorry couldn't resist - been on the Pop!!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And mine was about the ability of companies to manipulate the media to their advantage, New Labour or OAT it's al the same thing.
Explain to me one thing what does the massive premium you have to pay get for you in any heavy branded product? If it's Kelvin Klien or Levi's it is still the same pair of jeans when you wear it.
With government you still get the same bunch of liars, just a new flavour of liar.
I could digress in to a number of small service industries/business who still provide me with better quality goods in my neighborhood these days and at a better price than the branded superstores etc.
My rule of thumb is that the quality of service provided is always inversely proportional to the level of marketing and advertising spin!
Explain to me one thing what does the massive premium you have to pay get for you in any heavy branded product? If it's Kelvin Klien or Levi's it is still the same pair of jeans when you wear it.
With government you still get the same bunch of liars, just a new flavour of liar.
I could digress in to a number of small service industries/business who still provide me with better quality goods in my neighborhood these days and at a better price than the branded superstores etc.
My rule of thumb is that the quality of service provided is always inversely proportional to the level of marketing and advertising spin!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: FOREST OF DEAN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TWIT-TWOO!!
Sorry you two but as stated been on the pop!
So are you too still going to buy the propaganda called "Piloat" or are still going to beat about the bush?
Porridge
Don't understand how level of service is inversely proportional to marketing/spin ?
BA are pretty good and deliver 99% of the time so do easyjet. OAT marketing very good but so is Bristol. Both give good service but at half the cost.
It's a very difficult subject but at the end of the day.........
DON"T BUY PILOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TWIT-TWOO !!!
Sorry you two but as stated been on the pop!
So are you too still going to buy the propaganda called "Piloat" or are still going to beat about the bush?
Porridge
Don't understand how level of service is inversely proportional to marketing/spin ?
BA are pretty good and deliver 99% of the time so do easyjet. OAT marketing very good but so is Bristol. Both give good service but at half the cost.
It's a very difficult subject but at the end of the day.........
DON"T BUY PILOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TWIT-TWOO !!!
Last edited by PILOTOWL; 6th Dec 2005 at 22:15.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, porridge - I wouldn't go as far as calling it an inverse relationship. If you buy a (heavily branded) Audi A6, you get a much better car than if you buy a Mondeo. If you go to (heavily-branded) Oxford, you get much better training than at certain budget, US-based, JAA schools.
But the point is this: Those who do NOT research schools wisely and carefully may be led to believe that by paying a HUGE premium at OAT their chances are MUCH better to get a first job. For the majority of APP cadets, I would doubt whether that's the case. Do they get good value? As far as I'm aware, Oxford does not publish how many APP cadets *don't* get an FO position upon completing the programme - only how many *do*.
This is not to discredit the quality of the school. I spent much time there myself, and Oxford is an excellent FTO.
But for those apsiring pilots not in the know, how can they make their training decision wisely and without bias? By reading mags that clearly favour Oxford - for the obvious reason of massive advertising expenditure? Or by speaking to a "career advisor" from that school? By trusting ads with big jets and in them or a glossy "skills directory"?
As Moo said - you have to go there, speak to staff and students, check the facilities and airplanes. If you think the school is worth its money and right for you, by all means enroll. But those things alone should be the factors on which to base a decision. And do not let yourself be biased by the type of marketing that only Oxford can afford. This stuff costs money which isn't going towards your training.
KK
But the point is this: Those who do NOT research schools wisely and carefully may be led to believe that by paying a HUGE premium at OAT their chances are MUCH better to get a first job. For the majority of APP cadets, I would doubt whether that's the case. Do they get good value? As far as I'm aware, Oxford does not publish how many APP cadets *don't* get an FO position upon completing the programme - only how many *do*.
This is not to discredit the quality of the school. I spent much time there myself, and Oxford is an excellent FTO.
But for those apsiring pilots not in the know, how can they make their training decision wisely and without bias? By reading mags that clearly favour Oxford - for the obvious reason of massive advertising expenditure? Or by speaking to a "career advisor" from that school? By trusting ads with big jets and in them or a glossy "skills directory"?
As Moo said - you have to go there, speak to staff and students, check the facilities and airplanes. If you think the school is worth its money and right for you, by all means enroll. But those things alone should be the factors on which to base a decision. And do not let yourself be biased by the type of marketing that only Oxford can afford. This stuff costs money which isn't going towards your training.
KK
Its very similar to the world of motoring journalism. The magazine price covers the costs of production, distribution, taxes and retailers profit. The profit and pay of the journalists comes entirely from the ad revenue.
Now if you look at historical relationships between a car makers reviews and a car makers magazine advertising spend you will see a correlation. In effect the car magazines have a gun to the manufacturers heads as they have x-100thousand potential customers reading and believing their opinions.
For example. Post 1990 Porsche was losing money and cut back on its magazine advertising. For the next few years the 911 became 'eclipsed' the 928 was slagged mercilessly and the 944/968 never got anything but lukewarm praise for the niche race models. Then Porsche started spending on ads - big time. You will now rarely pick up a copy of Autocar, Top Gear or Evo without finding Porsche having the first page doble page glossy as adspace. The most expensive real estate in the ad business. If not the front two pages they will be in number two position on the back page. Their spend is huge. For each car they sell they outspend a rival such as BMW by 8 times.
You've not read a bad review of their products for some years now.
Peugeot cut down its level of magazine ad spending and I doubt you've read a good review since.
With this in mind you have to remember that flying magazines work just the same. Garmin never get a bad review do they? Ever seen a flying mag say that Breitlings are overpriced technically mediocre watches viewed by many people as a cliche to be avoided? Of course you haven't - that back page "Breitling NaviSpaceAdventure" is paying the Editors mortgage.
So the chances of you finding in the magazines a well balanced factually researched article about the pros and CONS of attending OATS or FTE Jerez or CABAIR are frankly pretty small indeed.
Given that the debate on these forums for night on 8 years has raged about the choice of Integrated or Modular (509 vs Self Improver before 1999) it is wonderous that no magazine has ever run such a feature. Why not get two journalists on two pages arguing for one of the two options? It would be a good read, easily written and highly useful to its readers...
But it will never happen.
Cheers
WWW
ps - Go Modular, save £25k, you'll still get a job in this market and with the saving you can pick up a Boxster S and then be a real airline pilot in your very first year!
Now if you look at historical relationships between a car makers reviews and a car makers magazine advertising spend you will see a correlation. In effect the car magazines have a gun to the manufacturers heads as they have x-100thousand potential customers reading and believing their opinions.
For example. Post 1990 Porsche was losing money and cut back on its magazine advertising. For the next few years the 911 became 'eclipsed' the 928 was slagged mercilessly and the 944/968 never got anything but lukewarm praise for the niche race models. Then Porsche started spending on ads - big time. You will now rarely pick up a copy of Autocar, Top Gear or Evo without finding Porsche having the first page doble page glossy as adspace. The most expensive real estate in the ad business. If not the front two pages they will be in number two position on the back page. Their spend is huge. For each car they sell they outspend a rival such as BMW by 8 times.
You've not read a bad review of their products for some years now.
Peugeot cut down its level of magazine ad spending and I doubt you've read a good review since.
With this in mind you have to remember that flying magazines work just the same. Garmin never get a bad review do they? Ever seen a flying mag say that Breitlings are overpriced technically mediocre watches viewed by many people as a cliche to be avoided? Of course you haven't - that back page "Breitling NaviSpaceAdventure" is paying the Editors mortgage.
So the chances of you finding in the magazines a well balanced factually researched article about the pros and CONS of attending OATS or FTE Jerez or CABAIR are frankly pretty small indeed.
Given that the debate on these forums for night on 8 years has raged about the choice of Integrated or Modular (509 vs Self Improver before 1999) it is wonderous that no magazine has ever run such a feature. Why not get two journalists on two pages arguing for one of the two options? It would be a good read, easily written and highly useful to its readers...
But it will never happen.
Cheers
WWW
ps - Go Modular, save £25k, you'll still get a job in this market and with the saving you can pick up a Boxster S and then be a real airline pilot in your very first year!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would disagree that you have a MUCH better chance of a job with oxford than any other training provider.
After using the numbers on http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/career-03.htm
In a previous thread and using there own data to say that you only had an additional 5% extra chance of a job doing intergrated APP program. They quite quickly changed the format so it wasn't so obvious that even with there own students there wasn't really much difference between Intergrated and modular. Now the data on the page is a bit miss leading the numbers are now lumped together so you can't tell if its modular/ intergrated or if a graduate is classed as flying training done or just ground school done. The year I got a job I was included in the statistics even though I had only done distance learning with them. And for the numbers to be of any use they would have to publish how many graduates a year are going through the school.
For the OAT guys that are there how many pilots are getting trained just now?
Also the fact that they now have started an enhanced modular course themselves tends to tell me that they have now relised that the old intergrated market isn't what it used to be just now.
I bet there are small modular schools out there with a higher percentage of jobs within 6 months than oxford. I would have a sneaky suspision that anyone who has got on well with the chaps at ontrack will have access to way more contacts and airline information than the OAT graduates.
Even if you do go to oxford its only the top percentage of each class get put forward for the BA, Cityexpress, BMIbaby and flybe jobs. And to be honest I know of a few other companys who have employed more low hour pilots in the last year than the last 3. And 2 of them arn't even mentioned in the OAT list.
The waypoint program sounds pretty good to me to be honest.
£25k for CPL/MEP/IR/MCC is quite a good price. Even if you don't included all the marketing bull****e that they would have you believe. Should be able to get the whole lot done for 40k.
But to be honest its all hedging you have to decide whats going to happen in 2 years time. All sorts of things could happen Green taxes could come in which will knackar the jets another 9/11. You just have to decide if you want 40k's worth of debt or 70k's worth of debt if it all goes wrong. And if it all stays as it is with everyone getting jobs it means that you have saved 30k.
MJ
After using the numbers on http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/career-03.htm
In a previous thread and using there own data to say that you only had an additional 5% extra chance of a job doing intergrated APP program. They quite quickly changed the format so it wasn't so obvious that even with there own students there wasn't really much difference between Intergrated and modular. Now the data on the page is a bit miss leading the numbers are now lumped together so you can't tell if its modular/ intergrated or if a graduate is classed as flying training done or just ground school done. The year I got a job I was included in the statistics even though I had only done distance learning with them. And for the numbers to be of any use they would have to publish how many graduates a year are going through the school.
For the OAT guys that are there how many pilots are getting trained just now?
Also the fact that they now have started an enhanced modular course themselves tends to tell me that they have now relised that the old intergrated market isn't what it used to be just now.
I bet there are small modular schools out there with a higher percentage of jobs within 6 months than oxford. I would have a sneaky suspision that anyone who has got on well with the chaps at ontrack will have access to way more contacts and airline information than the OAT graduates.
Even if you do go to oxford its only the top percentage of each class get put forward for the BA, Cityexpress, BMIbaby and flybe jobs. And to be honest I know of a few other companys who have employed more low hour pilots in the last year than the last 3. And 2 of them arn't even mentioned in the OAT list.
The waypoint program sounds pretty good to me to be honest.
£25k for CPL/MEP/IR/MCC is quite a good price. Even if you don't included all the marketing bull****e that they would have you believe. Should be able to get the whole lot done for 40k.
But to be honest its all hedging you have to decide whats going to happen in 2 years time. All sorts of things could happen Green taxes could come in which will knackar the jets another 9/11. You just have to decide if you want 40k's worth of debt or 70k's worth of debt if it all goes wrong. And if it all stays as it is with everyone getting jobs it means that you have saved 30k.
MJ
