Space Odyssey


I'm just curious as to your aviation background. I take it you are in some way attached to/work for Atlantic?

Rowardennan,

At the risk of you telling me that you're not interested in listening to me because I haven't been to Oxford, I will say up front that I've never been to Oxford.

It seems to me that you've already made up your mind, and you're looking for people to back you up in your choice. If that's the case, then go for it. Like I said, I have no first hand experience of Oxford, but I've never heard a bad word said about them other than the fact that integrated courses are often considered to be unduly expensive and they are the most expensive of the bunch. This is obviously something which you already know, and you've already justified the extra cost to yourself.

As for Space_odyssey, I'm afraid I don't have very much time for someone who signed up to the forums less than 24 hours ago, and has made 5 posts in that time all of which shout about how good one specific school is. Air Atlantique (and I've double-checked my spelling after you criticised a poster on another thread for getting it wrong) is another school I have no first-hand experience of but have heard good things about. I presume, Space_odyssey, that you did all your training there? In which case I would guess that you're not in the best position to say that they are better than Oxford, since you didn't do any training at Oxford? And you certainly haven't been to every single school there is, so there is no way that you can claim objectively that "Everybody knows that the best trained pilots are from Atlantic".

FFF
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It's not that I've made up my mind at all. I'm just interested in hearing about Oxford..good or bad. I'm not trying to get anyone to back up my choices. It just seems harder to get objective information about Oxford compared to other schools as every request on these boards seems to degenerate in a bashing of the company,with very little useful information ever being put forward. I've looked into other schools and spoken to students who have/are attending. I hear people raving about Jerez but it's my understanding that the company is presently being sold off by Bae so I'm dubious about sinking all my cash into a course there at present.

The reason why I stated I wasn't interested in hearing about other schools were because questions about Oxford seem to attract the sad acts who seem to derive some sort of gratification out of running down somewhere that in all probability they have never even been to. I'm sure they have their reasons whether real or imagined,but I 'm really not interested in hearing their views if they don't have a clue what they are talking about

People like space_odyssey posting his inane drivil under an assumed alter is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to avoid



I've looked into the other options and as I've said I need an integrated course. Oxford seems a bit pricey but in other respects it fits in with the type of course I require

space man wind up!
 

I know this is going off the OAT subject but just have to mention my visit to Atlantique.
The staff at Atlantique where very helpfull and answered all my questions with a great deal of honesty.

In fact they were so honest they put me off,the few young graduates they take on as Pilots earn between 10-12k a year and do a hell of a lot of gardening.

I was told by their marketing manager that he has been asked to recommend pilots to airlines all of,hmmm......twice!!

They admitted to being a small school relative to the likes of OAT,but I agreed this was not a bad thing as all the students would benefit with the exta tuition and time.

For better job prospects they recommended doing the 2yr internship with their sister company in the USA, Delta Connections cus 85% of the students are employed as instuctors in the second year as to build up hours and then gauranteed an interview with Delta for a F/O position($60,000)exc.accom.

They also offered a combination of the two as most schools do for frozen ATPL for £32,000.

Overall they seem to have good quality staff,small/old fleet(for student use),and very well set up for a modular course but lack (IMHO)the connections with any airlines(delta only consider students who complete their 2year internship)

Think Space man bin snorting space dust:=

Space_odyssey

you say
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'smaller flight schools such as OATS (never heard of them until recently)!!'
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and
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'When it comes to applying for airlines, not sure if they will have heard of OATS and dont think their quilifications will be recognised'
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I feel I must say that if you havent heard of OATS then you should do what your loggin name suggests and 'rocket' back to your own galaxy!'

Careful with the FO positions side of things, if you havent got a green card to work in the US then you wont be getting a job.

Odyssey - are you a troll?

Atlantic are small fry compared to OATS who are the largest UK school.

Whilst being an admirable FTO Atlantic are nothing special. They have a good reputation as a training provider. As do OATS.

In my opinion the sensible training route right now is Modular.

So I'd start by taking a look at the schools which are out there: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf

Ideally I would look to find a good school locally which can provide PPL CPL and IR modules.

Thereby ensuring I am most familiar with the local area, procedures, aircraft and staff on the day I tackle my IRT. Continuity of training will look good in my logbook, just one school and maybe one instructor will have total 'ownership' of my training and this will motivate them to do well by me. They will be well placed to give me a glowing reference.

If I make an effort to get on well with everyone there and work hard they might look to hire me as an Instructor when I finish should there be no airline vacancies.

Personally right now, living where I do and knowing what I know about training I'd do my Groundschool with Bristol via distance learning and brush up course. I'd do my PPL and CPL at Aeros in Gloucester.

I happen to know Bristol gets consistently good reviews on PPRuNe and I've met some of their students. I have heard good things about Aeros for many years and they seem to employ some good people.

There will be equally good training providers on your doorstep if you do some research.

I can see from their websites that this will cost me:

£1900 for groundschool + £750 for the CAA

PPL £5,200

CPL £4,000

Multi + IR £12,000

I'll need to build about 100hrs after the PPL before starting the CPL so I would go to the US and spend about £5,000 doing this.

I'm going to need medicals, transport, materials, food, stationary etc etc.

Lets call that £2,000

We find:

£2,650 + £5,200 + £4,000 + £12,000 + £5,000 + £2000 = £30,850

Now to be prudent we must add a 20% contingency to allow for failed exams, flightests and extra tuition required giving us a back of a fag packet budget for Zero to Hero of £37,020

Now. The OATS APP as discussed on this thread is £61,500. Unless you live near Oxford you need to add £3,000 for accomodation costs. You also need to add your 20% contingency to the course cost. This results in a comparable budget of £76,800

With savings of nearly £40,000 my decision is clear.

I would also, personally, be happier training at a smaller school where - if I want - I can have a word with the CFI without going through a course manager and associated bureacracy. I would be happier being taught from scratch to completion by probably the same bloke.

There's nothing wrong woth OATS they offer a fine product and they are very popular.

But under todays climate I wouldn't pay the premium. Same goes for all the other Integrated providers (CABAIR and BAE - named for balance!).

Cheers

WWW

Thanks very much for the info guys

Certainly plenty to think about

Great post WWW, pointed things out very clearly and persuavsively! Very tempted to stay in Bristol after my PhD completion and do exactly what you said!! :O

OAT
 

In a few words:

OAT 14 ATPL courses:EXCELLENT! but:

If you dont want to through money out of the window..go the Modular way..Modulars have actually less hours to learn the subjects(therefore still not understanding why Integrated thouth they were so great just because they threw 60K up front)..and the stats are there..modulars have as good results as integrated ask for them for stats..
The teaching is with the same amazing instructors so level of teaching is the same..

For the flying..unless you had 99% average at ATPL..dont fly tere..eventhough teaching is very good its out of price and they tend to drain you out of money the best they can,,specially guys sponsored by foreign airlines..

Not much time left but ATPL thery the best!8 months and you are out of there..the flying make your own mind by talking to their students flying..

M.85

Rowardennan

You said "...for various reasons I need to get onto an integrated course ...". If it is not personal, could you expand on your reasons? I have never seen any sustainable reason that a self-sponsored student should book an integrated course, even after directly asking an employee of a major school offering integrated training on this forum (he didn't even try). I am genuinely curious as to any possible reason that people choose this route.

I do work for a modular school, but have been trying to find out the advantages of integrated for years, since I was choosing a course and one school tried to sell me an integrated course, despite knowing I had over 150 hours so it was even more inappropriate than for a new pilot. It irritated me at the time so much I did not even seriously consider their modular course. Note I am not identifying the school!

It's mainly for geographic reasons and time

I don't live in a part of the UK where I'm near any flight schools who offer any type of commercial training. I'm also restricted on a time basis as I'm taking unpaid leave from my current employment to undergo the training

So basically what I'm looking for is an all inclusive course,where I'm in one place and spend all my time getting the various steps completed in the least possible time. As I'm taking unpaid time off it's in my interests to spend all my available time working towards my licence,rather than having intervals where maybe I'm waiting around between various sections,or travelling back and forth to schools on the mainland whilst following the modular approach

I know the integrated approach is more expensive but I only have a finite amount of time before I need to make a decision on whether to return to my current employment or start trying to get employed by an airline. I just think that a full time course give me the best chance of doing this in the least amount of time

It just seems to me that the integrated approach suits my personal circumstances best

WWW,

Interesting post, I have to concede that having recently had a look at Bristol Groundschools website, they seem to have a very professional setup going on - although a distance learning course was not for me personally.

You make a point about a smaller school having a more approachable CFI and not the layers of management. Well it might just be me, but I have had several chats with the OATs MD, Head of Training, SGI's (not been involved in the flying side yet, but I am sure the CFI is equally approachable), without any kind of bouncing around in management structure. Don't get me wrong, the structure of Course Mentors etc is in place, but the management doors seem to always be open if you want to go direct, so in my opinion I wouldn't say this is a disadvantage with all big schools - its definitely not the Yes Sir/No Sir environment a lot of people think it is.

Anyway, Doing the modular you missed the MCC and JOC course that you do in the APP price - 40 hours Total and a few more £££, which narrows the gap a tiny bit more. You also say £3000 for accomodation on the APP, well I think being realistic for Food, Accomodation and Socialising in and around Oxford you are looking at £700 per month - or maybe I am eating and enjoying myself too much......

Send Clowns, I think with an integrated course you can have a perceived sense of "Security" in the sense that you pay your BIG cheque and everything gets sorted for you. I think this extends more than people realise. That is to say, when you have your funding arranged and your contract signed you are commited and will be completing your training. Modular is always open to doing some modules, then having a big lifestyle change (girlfriend up the duff for blokes, you up the duff for the ladies etc.) that could mean you spending the money for your IR on something else, despite all your best intentions.

We all know the modular vs. integrated thing has been done to death over the years, I think Wannabee's can be divided up into 3 categories.

1. Those that just "Feel" integrated is best for them (whatever the reason).
2. Those that would like to do integrated, but for personal circumstance reasons can't
3. Those that Want to go Modular, save some money/keep their options open, train more locally etc

Each individual having done their research into the available options will know what they want - so lets try and get people on this Forum to be more helpful and if someone says they want info on integrated courses because it is for them, then let them have it as it is what they feel is best for them. Don't make them trawl through 20 responses saying "well have you considered modular..." because they almost certainly have.


BigAir

BigAir - an MCC can be had for under £2,000 and nobody gives a toss where you got it from quite frankly. Hmmm, mini self funded JOC courses are a total waste of time in my humble opinion.

Unless they are tailored to certain SOPs and certain flying philosophies they can be detrimental. No airline is going to accept one as being equivalent to their own. And don't go thinking that its a 737 Simulator because it isn't, just like a Nova GTE in full skirts, blacked out windows and dustbin conversion exhaust isn't a sportscar.

When it comes to large FTO training I know a bit as I was an instructor at one. Believe me, its much easier and much less political at a 4 man band outfit to 'iron out' any difficulties. Like being double booked, always getting the duff aircraft, a distracted instructor, too fast/slow a pace etc etc. In a large FTO your instructors are always up against 'the system' which consists of the CFI, Deputy CFI, Standards Dept, Ops and Marketing. Who all have differing priorities. Each has their own pet mission on which course needs to finish when and what resources are going to be allocated to whom and how.

Trust me you are but a number in a big machine and compared to the clout of say - an airline sponsored course - you play second or third fiddle.

I've seen individuals get bolshy and its done them no good. I've seen courses of self sponsored get bolshy for ditto effect.

Whereas at Little Piddlington-on-the-Marsh School of flight training if you and the other 6 students get seriously hacked off you can march into the CFI's portacabin and damn well dictate terms. Fact.

Cheers

WWW

WWW,

I know you've been through the mill of all of this a million times before - look at my profile I've been kicking around for 4 years - not as long as you I admit, but enough to know your history for sure.

You missed my point, of course a pissy little flying school in the arse end of nowhere is going to listen to what the Balshy students say more than a multi level corporate like OATs or even BAE in Jerez. All I am saying is at OATs for people who whinge saying you can't get stuff sorted because there are too many layers of middle man around just simply haven't got to know the place and how to pull the strings. I admit I have even seen it at OATs that a course who get arsey get no favours done for them. What ever school/airline/anything you end up in, find out how they like their strings pulled - and you will get any problem sorted. Trust me, there is a way at OATs currently.

Its like the people who complain blue murder at the slightest thing wrong in a restaurant - they get god knows what in their food, If you keep your cool and are nice to the staff - stuff gets sorted... Or maybe not, maybe I just have a way of dealing with people to get things done to a satisfactory conclusion, called leadership/initiative or something isnt it, might be useful as a pilot???

As regards the JOT course, well it ain't a full 737 sim but I am sure it is close enough to give you a good idea. Also, I seem to remember BA always gave their cadets a JOT course before sending them to Cranebank - I am sure they had a reason for that other than to waste a few more pounds? + an extra 15-20 hours in that kind of sim will only be a benefit for any potential sim check you get at an interview. As I understand SOPs are being used straight from a specific company so will be very representative - especially if you end up working for that company...

Moiving onto your point about being taught by the same bloke all the way through - I am of a different opinion on this, I think going into an airline environment you fly with different people everyday, your instructors are different if you move fleets/companies etc. It is good to have a variety as different people do do things in slightly different ways. I am not saying i would want 2 different instructors in the run up to my IR, but in the modular context 1 to PPL, 1 to CPL and a different 1 to Multi IR would in my book be better than 1 mediocre person all the way through, a kind of Synergistic Instructoring if you like.

BigAir

PS A nova liked you described definitely isn't a sports car, you forgot the 12" wide exhaust pipe, now that would be a sports car

Rowardennan

Everything you want can be provided on a modular course!

A modular course takes no longer than an integrated. In fact it may not take as long overall if you work really hard at the flying side, and a large chunk can be completed away from commercial schools. Instead of a year at a commercial school you really only need perhaps 9 months.

The course can be all-inclusive, I can think of at least 4 schools (including, I admit, my own employer) who offer the whole course, and if you book correctly there need not be a gap between modules. No need to travel back and forth!

It is a misapprehension commonly repeated here that a modular course is not "full time". To most of our students it is. The option is there to sit the modules independently, but that adds to the flexibility it does not force you away from the pattern of training you want.

Big AirThis is entirely possible with modular training. With my experience with SFT and other peoples with other providers it is also very unwise, and a distinct disadvantage of an integrated course! Put it in trust or escrow account to benefit your training provider as training is taken if you doin't trust yourself.

There is still no given advantage for integrated ...

You missed my point, of course a pissy little flying school in the arse end of nowhere is going to listen to what the Balshy students say more than a multi level corporate like OATs or even BAE in Jerez. All I am saying is at OATs for people who whinge saying you can't get stuff sorted because there are too many layers of middle man around just simply haven't got to know the place and how to pull the strings. I admit I have even seen it at OATs that a course who get arsey get no favours done for them. What ever school/airline/anything you end up in, find out how they like their strings pulled - and you will get any problem sorted. Trust me, there is a way at OATs currently.

Yes, well, not having to learn the political realities of a larger FTO is rather the point.

Its like the people who complain blue murder at the slightest thing wrong in a restaurant - they get god knows what in their food, If you keep your cool and are nice to the staff - stuff gets sorted... Or maybe not, maybe I just have a way of dealing with people to get things done to a satisfactory conclusion, called leadership/initiative or something isnt it, might be useful as a pilot???

You can argue anything is useful as a pilot. I don't think attending a large or small FTO makes a toss of difference.

As regards the JOT course, well it ain't a full 737 sim but I am sure it is close enough to give you a good idea. Also, I seem to remember BA always gave their cadets a JOT course before sending them to Cranebank - I am sure they had a reason for that other than to waste a few more pounds? + an extra 15-20 hours in that kind of sim will only be a benefit for any potential sim check you get at an interview. As I understand SOPs are being used straight from a specific company so will be very representative - especially if you end up working for that company...

It isn't a 737 sim and getting a good idea is a pointless exercise. Either you learn to fly a proper certified sim - or - you learn procedures and principles on a synthetic training aid. A halfway house is just an expensive way of completing an MCC. The quality of the tuition is sooooo much more important than the look and size of the box.

Moiving onto your point about being taught by the same bloke all the way through - I am of a different opinion on this, I think going into an airline environment you fly with different people everyday, your instructors are different if you move fleets/companies etc. It is good to have a variety as different people do do things in slightly different ways. I am not saying i would want 2 different instructors in the run up to my IR, but in the modular context 1 to PPL, 1 to CPL and a different 1 to Multi IR would in my book be better than 1 mediocre person all the way through, a kind of Synergistic Instructoring if you like.

Yeah, don't confuse line flying with basic training. Basic training is best delivered with continuity. Same base, same aircraft, same instructors -- as far as is practicable. As for mediocre - the best instructors I know work for small FTO's and the standards for experience required by the big boys have all declined significantly from the CAP509 days.

As always - its horses for courses. £40k is still a lot of money though. What would you rather have:

a) 185hrs piston Frzn ATPL, CPL/IR MCC and a £70,000 loan.

b) 200hrs piston Frzn ATPL, CPL/IR MCC, B737 type rating + 100hrs/70 sectors and a £65,000 loan.

It used to be the case up until Autumn 2001 that the quickest way into a jet was to rock up at a large FTO who were training airline cadets.

It is now the case that the quickest way into a jet is to rock up at a small FTO, then pay for a Ryanair or Astraeus style type rating.

The wheel will surely turn again but for now the arguments are pretty conclusive.

Cheers

WWW

...If you pass the selection tests for the APP at OATS, does that mean you have a good chance to succeed (a bit like the CTC McAlpine tests for the EZY sponsorship) in your training? Or is it of no significance at all (as they could just want your money)? Are these tests relevant and accurate?
Thanks

Just a small point that may be of interest that was brought up in the BA talk at the flyer training show;

BA will only consider self-sponsored (SSP) students with a frozen ATPL from an approved integarated course ( the school has to recommend you).

This changes if you are a direct entry pilot (DEP- ATPL 1500hrs min) where they look at your experience rather than where you trained.

May be worth bearing in mind if you wish to work for BA in the future

To reply to Fancy Navigator's query, I suggest you read this link of Oxford's own website and then draw your own conclusions about whether they just take anybody who can pay.