any info on battlecreek?
 

does anyone know when the jaa training is due to start at battlecreek. If so, how much would it cost. Any info greatly appreciated esp from ex convicts.

As an previous inmate I can only echo what the (ex) dean says of next spring, although that would probabley be the earliest.

The restructuring has taken hold meaning the college has a reduced number of JAA approved staff. Currently those staff are working on completing the remaining courses or the FAA side. My guess is that when WMU puts its house in order it would be able to start JAA training soon after, however several things need to be put in place. Among those are better market demand, a more stable financial footing and cynically I may add, winning / renewing a contract with a major airline??!!

They could start new JAA courses with relatively little notice, however the question is what they would actually start FOR, given the existing staff are now doing new roles etc.

Any thoughts anyone??

:) Good News WMU is continuing to offer JAA training with a new course starting in March 2003 also they will be taking part in the Flight Training Exhibition at Heathrow Nov 9th.

WMU and Training
 

WMU have finished the restructuring. Restructured too much and have cut too many staff. On the ground school side they have been trying to re-hire people they have sacked. On the flight side they even asked one QFI to stay on and work for nothing to get them out of the jam they made for themselves. At present the pilots are overworked.
Groundschool instructors are heavily involved with the university lecture program. JAA courses if any will come second to those. USA students will come first.
Self funders should be very careful as there is a history of putting on courses and then cancelling at the last minute.

Don't I know it!
 

I was looking to start at WMU 6 months ago, just as the smelly stuff hit the fan.

So course after course was cancelled. The worst part about it, was that they didn't even bother sending me an email, or a note with a turd through the window:D

So I have given up hope and paid less to start at BEA in Jerez in Feb. At least I know that is more likely to happen.

Be very careful with this lot... very careful indeed.

tarbaby

I have no idea who you are and I really thought I would never post here again after the string of "first posters" here earlier in the year who seemed to have no other motive than to "do down" WMU. Your facts are wrong, quite simply. There has been no attempt whatsoever to rehire laid off instructors (unfortunately!). Try to get a flight instructor to stay on for free? Please - that would be stupid and to believe anyone these days would consider asking someone to do that is displaying low intelligence. Maybe you're just innocently posting in a rumour forum, in which case please stand corrected. Maybe you have an agenda, in which case make your lies believable!

There is lots to be done at WMU after restructuring and since it is a University and not a commercial organisation this is not easy. There is no marketing department and little expertise at the top level in commercial practices - which should be fairly obvious to most people. There are enough people working their butts off to make things happen for good reasons. To say that if and when JAA training resumes that the instructors will put those courses econd and favour USA students is a gross insult. If you are an ex-student then please don't ever come back. If not, then you have no right to such an opinion anyway and just don't ever be in the same room as me!

Finally, and no insult intended, but ex and current students here know Jack sh$t about current and future plans and policies, so please ensure when you post that you make it clear you are posting your OPINION based on what you know and that you may not possess all the facts.

Enough - g'night.

It doesn't surprise me that the students !

Considering that they and others are told JACK SH$T!!! :mad:

Could I just point out that there might be less rumour about if the management were to provide more hard facts?

Presbycusis

Most of the rumour spreading is done by those who prefer not to ask questions and find out what is happening. Anyway, have fun posting your bull - I'm outta here.

Aren’t we missing the point of this thread? Faa kit asked for info as an innocent Wannabe, specifically canvassing the views of ex-students. Don’t remember him asking for the over-defensive & vitriolic retorts of a disgruntled instructor!

Faa kit - be very, VERY wary. As a recent victim of the way WMU treats its paying guests, I couldn't possibly recommend it. And before I’m jumped upon like Tarbaby - that’s just an opinion. For the facts, email me.

But as Presbycusis says - What do I know?

I’m only the customer.

And the customer knows Jack Sh$t.....

It would appear Presbycusis has started talking to him/herself....:confused:

presbycusis
 

Well with hopeful, current and ex students all saying they get told "
Shouldn't a few alarm bells ring?

Oh I forgot you couldn't give COLOR=red]TWO SH$TS[/COLOR]

I hope you didn't speak to BA in that way (Sorry, You probably didn't speak at all to be correct!):rolleyes: A very understanding airline in my eyes!

No harm intended for the training side of things! Just a the Admin:mad:

My only contact with WMU has been a number of years ago, when they first offered a 509 course (the old integrated course under the CAA). As soon as a few airlines joined up for sponsorship courses, they wrote back saying they were unable to take any self-sponsored students. They followed this policy up until BA cancelled their contract.

Why would you do this course over a OATS or BAe - its the same price, unless you had the delight of flying over the pond, or had a particular desire to fly in the US.

I think we all got excited over the 747 on the tarmac!

Or where lusting after the local beauties. Well if anyone saw any, please notify me! :rolleyes:

thanks for all replies.
ill certainly be heading for jerez.
i didnt mean to ignite any unburnt fuses.

C U there!!!!!!

If anyone is still unclear as to WMU's commitment to FAA vs JAA training, this week's Flight International says it all.

I can't get a copy at my local newsagents. In a nutshell what does it say?http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/.../aktion085.gif

Article was by David Learmount & looked at the prospects for the flight training schools. Gist of it was:

BAe @ Jerez & Aus were quite upbeat saying their market is "booming".

OATS were more pessimistic, noting that sponsorships are a dying breed and so is the appeal of flying as a career.

Much interest in the innovative but as yet unproven CTC McAlpine scheme, and a little about CCAT whose business has been steady but is now tailing off.

WMU described how they are dealing with the complicated security vetting requirements for US training, especially for anyone wanting a type rating in their 737-400 sim (which, incidentally, is not a type rating sim). They omitted to mention the high cost of the vetting process. Their 4 year FAA aviation degree program is apparently completely full, whereas the JAA ATPL course gets a passing mention to say that they have no students at present though they "expect to offer courses early next year".

Doesn't fill one with confidence, though as a highly dissatisfied WMU customer my impartiality is possibly somewhat suspect.....

Hope this helps.

Not helpful at all. Flight International didn't talk to anyone here anyway. You infer someone claimed type ratings could be done in the 737 sim - not true, you are right it is not rated for that. If someone did claim that, e-mail me and tell me who. plus, a "highly" dissatisfied customer? Please e-mail me and let me know the details.

I refer you to George McAndrews, WMU Director of Safety & Operations, who is quoted verbatim in Flight International.

WMU-the balanced view
 

As with most discussion forums there are elements of truth in almost every entry, but, because of individual personal agendas we rarely get the full picture. So, let's get all of this in perspective.
Yes, the JAA program at WMU has been substantially curtailed, and not always in a manner consistent with the world class organization it aspires to become. The latest layoffs came in October in an attempt to integrate the FAA and JAA programs so that there would be less internal divisiveness and greater cost efficiency in the course delivery. Who can quibble with such well intentioned motives, expecially in uncertain times? Don't forget the shock of September 11th, is still reverberating very strongly in the US and it is creating some visa problems.
Presby is quite right to point out that the college is part of a US publicly funded university ans everyone should recognize that inevitably and, quite rightly, the main focus of the college will be on its domestice students. So, what's the future for the JAA training program . Well, the leadership claim that they are committed to future JAA courses and a great deal of work is being done to try and create a unified course taking the best of FAA and JAA training to deliver a world beating quality where FAA and JAA students can for the most part participate in the same course. Presby is quite right in saying there are a great many people working their butts off trying to make good things happen. However, just as in other organizations, there are those who continue to resist such changes, some who quite frankly aren't qualified to understand all the implications of such changes and the majority who as Presby says know Jack sh$t about what's going on. And that's the rub isn't it! For, as long as the mushroom management persists (you know, the kept in the dark and fed on sh$t kind), and they fail to recognize that world class organizations treat customers and employees with respect, communicate openly and honestly and honor their commitments they will continue to sell short the efforts of all those working their butts off. If all this sounds negative and derisory, let's keep it in perspective. There are very few organizations mentioned in this forum that don't come in for criticism. WMU has delivered outstanding JAA results in the past, and those instructors who remain are as committed as ever to delivering a quality product for their students. It's a matter of personal, professional pride and they work hard to overcome the inadequacies of the administration. So, is JAA training at WMU still a good bet? Unequivocably, the answer is yes, providing you are prepared to ignore the internal politics and work with your instructors to get through your training. As to when another JAA course will start - March has now become May. So, if you are interested, my advice to you would be to wrtie to the Dean and copy your letter to the college advisory board, c/o its chairman. Tell them of your interest, tell them of your current concerns and frustration and most importanly, tell them what you need, want and expect of a world class training facility. If those of you currently going through the program do similarly, as well as any former students who are willing, then maybe, just maybe, they'll start listening, start responding and take their self interested fingers off their political self destruct buttons.

Chickenfeed sounds alot like Birdseed to me? Know of each other perhaps? Just a hunch. ;)

Anyway.. WMU aint that bad mate.

Very Good instructors, very good planes, great results...what more do you want...? (other than winning the lottery/ or getting a job in this wonderful yet troubled industry)

Hope WMU pulls thru this troubled time. The JAA team have been working hard to keep the courses running as smoothly as possible and i believe are doing a bloody good job at it also.

If another JAA course starts, I would personally recommend this school. 'Good fun' as they say.

Bye!
The putt putt.....

My Lord, the defence rests......... for now.. ;)

Presbycusis
 

Don't be to smug Presby - your defence wasn't exactly world class PR

With a name a like 'levelhead' and a title like 'the balanced view' he sounds so reasonable, but the bottom line is obvious - he is clearly an employee of WMU. But what is he saying?

If the management have integrity (which they don't) and they make the right decisions (which they won't) and if the sheer motivation of the instructors can overcome the politically correct management (which it won't) then they 'might' be able to give a course as good as Oxford or Jerez - if you are 'prepared to 'ignore the internal politics'. 'March has now become May'.

Reading all this, I get the impression of a good man working at quite a low level (a flying or ground instructor) for the good of his company for a management totally unworthy of the decency and loyalty he is giving them.

Frankly, unless you really want to enjoy 'the american experience', why touch them with a barge pole when you could go to Oxford, Jerez, or Cabair? All of these come in for their fair share of criticism on pprune as well, but nobody suggests that any of them have anything but 100% commitment to the JAA.

Greengage22
 

Me thinks that you assume too much.

Don't be so quick to kick me in the shins levelhead - it was your defence I was referring to. It was meant as a compliment.

C172s, you sound awfully like the WMU promotional people did! Maybe you're acquainted? Just a hunch.....

"Come to Michigan", they said. "We've got new aircraft with GPS, our own 747 and our Senecas have leather seats & CD players. It'll be great fun!!! Oh, and we usually manage to get most of the chaps through ok" (you know, those chaps hand-picked from the top 0.1% of all airline applicants).

And fun it was, so what more could one possibly ask for! How about quality training, professionally delivered, on time & on budget?

To anyone seriously contemplating WMU’s hybrid JAA/FAA lash-up – tread carefully. Don't believe anything promised or implied at the marketing stage unless confirmed in writing; not all are the honourable ‘Officers & Gentlemen’ they may appear to be. Don't sign the contract, or part with a cent, until you are happy with every clause. Don't be surprised if the course is delayed or cancelled at short notice. Expect to be treated with contempt by certain members of the establishment. Allow generous contingencies of time & cash. And get yourself a good lawyer.

Let’s just look at the track record of IPTC/WMU. 1997 flying training starts with a course of seven self sponsored students. In 1998 WMU now has contracts with Aer Lingus, BA and Emirates. By the end of 2001 the contract with Aer Lingus is over and the last of the Emirates students are pretty near finished. However, a contract has been signed with Delta and three courses are in progress or in the offing plus a course of OBAP students (OBAP = Organisation of Black American Pilots. If you are white, however, you cannot say OBAP because it is racist).

At the beginning of 2002 six staff members are suspended from duty on the grounds of racial prejudice. These include the Head of Training, the CFI, his deputy, two flying instructors and one ground school instructor. No facts given but after a two month “investigation” during which witnesses for the defence are refused the chance to testify, those of the six who are still around are deemed to be guilty and all but one are made to retire at the end of the contract year by not having their contracts renewed.

Not satisfied with that the management of the university now decides to reduce the numbers even more and in October a few more instructors are sacked. Coincidentally, all these instructors are involved in JAA training. Just when those who were left thought it might be safe to go back in the water, there is yet another cull around the end of March this year resulting in some more redundancies.

For any of you out there who are still thinking of going to WMU, let me just point out that the current CFI has resigned, the former Head of Training has also resigned, and there will only be two UK licensed flying instructors on the payroll plus the Head of Training (who may or may not have an FAA licence and be able to legally instruct in the USA), plus some FAA instructors who are qualified to do JAA training. The atmosphere there, I am told, is, shall we say, fraught.

Presby, you are doing an admirable job in trying to defend the indefensible and keeping your job. However, the management at WMU has seen fit, for reasons known only to themselves, to release a relatively large number of people into the big wide world who have nothing to lose by telling the truth. As one of you said, “be very careful in your dealing with them.” (Sorry if that was a misquote but you know what I mean).

I understand the Chief of JOC is also going, and the new University president is notorious for sorting budgets out with a machete...

reynoldsno1 you are right about the JOC chief also leaving - I forgot to mention that. Not only him, but two of the simulator staff are, or have left, with the departure of the last JAA students.

And as if that cull were not enough, those instructors who are still there have either had a pay cut (up to 20% in some cases), or they have had their repatriation expenses cancelled. All very wonderful for morale and business. Don't look for too many happy faces if you do go there.

Having recently left WMU on the last JAA course, I would just like to put a students slant on this verbal slagging match. On the negative side; the admin side of WMU was never very hot but in turth I beleive that came down to the nature of the organisation as a whole. As said before in this thread it is a university, not a commercial organisation dictating its own budgets and survival like BAE/OAT/CABAIR. Our experience was that our instructors were dictated to by far higher levels up the chain who had little interest in the school apart from budgets and the glossy image it gave to its University. With the departure of major contracts such as BA etc. and the supposed scandal, which from what we picked up on had as much integrity as a Jerry Springer show.In truth a lot of reputations got burnt due to perhaps a clash of culture. But I really do not profess to know the full facts. These two setbacks combined with Sept. 11th ruined WMU's glossy image of international flight training.

In truth WMU is a tragedy, I personally believe it will be very hard to resurrect the organisation which I was lucky enough to experience before it began to slide. But if the University decides to really have a break, reorganise and start it off again I see no reason why it should'nt. The JAA instructors which are left, have a wealth of experience behind them and know what makes a professional flying school work.

The results of our course, which were doing their JAAs during all this political turmoil stand by our instructors ability and professionalism. We were all self sponsored, so claiming that it was just elite sponsored students which went through its gates is a load of bo****ks. In fact without stepping on too many tails, from what I saw, the self sponsored students were more successful than their counterparts....perhaps more to prove, who knows.

Overall, should JAA return to WMU, do not question the standard of training that you will recieve, but make sure that the people on high are fully behind the new programme. I know that our course left with a great number of good memories, and a standard of flying training, which should fingers crossed stand us in good stead for the future.

Blue Heron, I agree with you 100% on the standard of instruction and the dedication, experience and expertise on the part of the instructors, both flying and ground. The test results of the former IPTC were as good as anywhere else. The issue is the crass way in which a good organisation has been wilfully dismantled at the whim of people who know nothing about flying training. If you have just left then you would have been there last year when it all first started going to pieces, and will have since then seen the departure of progressively more of the same dedicated professionals.

I am glad that your recent memories of Battle Creek are good ones, a lot of the former instructors don't have that luxury. Anyway, if it's not too late, good luck with your IR Skill Test and here's hoping you get a job soon.